Aircraft Identification V

vikingBerserker · Jun 27, 2009

Ok, new one:

Tzaw1 · Jun 27, 2009

French Fouga CM88R Gémeaux 1

There are other minijets of Fouga. Very funny
http://www.minijets.org/typo3/index.php?id=67

vikingBerserker · Jun 27, 2009

dammit.......

Nicely done!

Airframes · Jun 27, 2009

Heck! My immediate reaction was 'Fouga'! But then I thought it was too obvious, and the building in the background didn't strike me as French. I would never have even guessed the name or type number though. Nice one!

Marcel · Jun 27, 2009

Saw this on an airshow:

Tzaw1 · Jun 27, 2009

Very nice At first I think about Büucker Jungmann or Tiger Moth.
But 00-GWC registration is:
Photos: Stampe-Vertongen SV-4C Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Marcel · Jun 27, 2009

Very good

Tzaw1 · Jun 27, 2009

carson1934 said:
Good afternoon Tzaw1,
But tell me something, the picture you have submitted is it really the Ikarus 232 (predecessor of Ikarus 451)? Would you have more pictures of it?
carson1934

I found yet another photo 232.

imalko · Jun 27, 2009

Tzaw1 said:
I found yet another photo 232.

Sorry, but this aircraft on your photo has red star under wing insignia, which means that this is undoubtedly Ikarus 451 and not prewar "232". I have one great picture of "Pionir" (official designation Ikarus B-5), but I can't post it right now because I don't have a scanner. As soon as I scan this picture at my friend I will post it. The picture in question shows that B-5 apparently had unretractable landing gear.

Its a great photo never the less. Thanks for sharing TZ.

Tzaw1 · Jun 27, 2009

Photo came from Bojan B. Dmitrijević "Jugoslovensko ratno vazduchoplovstvo 1942-1992", page 45.
Photo description:

Posleratni nastavak eksperimentalnog projekta aviona sa pilotom u leżećem polożaju konstruktora Beślina bili su avioni 232 i 451. Na slici probni pilot Tugomir Prebeg pored aviona 232. (VOC)

And, maybe this is an error, mayby not I can't this verify.

carson1934 · Jun 27, 2009

Tzaw1 said:
I found yet another photo 232.

I don't know if it is 232 or 451 but it is an excellent and rare picture anyway. I shall wait for Imalko to scan his picture and then we shall see...
In the meantime thanks a million to both of you
carson1934

imalko · Jun 27, 2009

Well this confused even myself, but I believe I have finally figured it out. Prewar experimental airplane was designated Ikarus B-5 and it had fixed landing gear. As prevoiusly mentioned, I will post picture of this plane as soon as I can. As long as projects "232" and "451" are concerned these were both build after the war.

So, there were three types with pilot in prone position build in Yugoslavia and they were all designed by Dragoljub Bešlin. Reasoning behind this concept was that pilot in prone position will be able to better cope with g-forces when pulling out of the dive. First experimental project, Ikarus B-5, was therefore envisioned as a dive-bomber. One prototype was build in 1940 but flight tests were not concluded because of German attack on Yugoslavia in April 1941. Second project was Pionir 232 (one example build in 1947) and the third project, developed from Pionir, was Ikarus 451. There were two examples of Ikarus 451 build. First prototype 451/I made its maiden flight on 22 September 1951 with Lt. Radivoj Glavičić at the controls. Second prototype 451/II (now exibited in the museum) flew for the first time on 26 February 1952 piloted by Captain Tugomir Prebeg. After two years of testing project was eventually abandoned.

Here is the link for few more pictures of Ikarus 451:

IKARUS 451

carson1934 · Jun 27, 2009

imalko said:
Well this confused even myself, but I believe I have finally figured it out. Prewar experimental airplane was designated Ikarus B-5 and it had fixed landing gear. As prevoiusly mentioned, I will post picture of this plane as soon as I can. As long as projects "232" and "451" are concerned these were both build after the war.

So, there were three plane types with pilot in prone position build in Yugoslavia and they were all designed by Dragoljub Bešlin. Reasoning behind this concept was that pilot in prone position will be able to better cope with g-forces when pulling out of the dive. First experimental project, Ikarus B-5, was therefore envisioned as a dive-bomber. One prototype was build in 1940 but flight tests were not concluded because of German attack on Yugoslavia in April 1941. Second project was Pionir 232 (one example build in 1947) and the third project, developed from Pionir, was Ikarus 451. There were two examples of Ikarus 451 build. First prototype 451/I made its maiden flight on 22 September 1951 with Lt. Radivoj Glavičić at the controls. Second prototype 451/II (now exibited in the museum) flew for the first time on 26 February 1952 piloted by Captain Tugomir Prebeg. After two years of testing project was eventually abandoned.

Here is the link for few more pictures of Ikarus 451:

IKARUS 451

Therefore Tzaw1 was right about his post #3368 the pictured aircraft is a 232 even if there are red star insignia under the wings as both were built after WWII.
We are now anxiously waiting for the picture of your Ikarus B5 as soon as you can find a scanner!
I must say that it is a very nice comment to a rather intricate question...
carson1934

Tzaw1 · Jun 27, 2009

It seems, that is a small difference.
The nacelle below the fuselage is smaller and right at "232" (at foto left).
But at "451" the nacelle has central postion and is a bit greater.
And wingtips are cutted, it seems.

EDIT

From Zlatko Rendulić "Avioni domaće konstrukcije posle drugog svetskog rata" (Home constructed aircrafts after 2 WW")

vikingBerserker · Jun 28, 2009

Ok, I'll take another crack at it.

Graeme · Jun 28, 2009

Marcogrifo said:
OK, guess this little bird:

Hate seeing images getting bypassed/ignored Marcogrifo so maybe mores clues or just reveal the identity? But as Wayne pointed out it certainly seems to be based on the Fokker?

vikingBerserker said:
Ok, I'll take another crack at it.

It's the Blackburn A.D. Scout. Nice images. Where do you source them from?

carson1934 · Jun 28, 2009

Graeme said:
Hate seeing images getting bypassed/ignored Marcogrifo so maybe mores clues or just reveal the identity? But as Wayne pointed out it certainly seems to be based on the Fokker?

It's the Blackburn A.D. Scout. Nice images. Where do you source them from?

Hi Graeme,
I agree with you hundred percent concerning bypassed images.
Actually I reckon there were no takers for your post #3339 of 6-26 (only Marcogrifo implied it could be a Tachikawa but no confirmation or clues).
Actually we should not accept further images till all old ones are identificed. That's what other forums do!
BTW would you give us a clue or two about above mentioned post?
carson1934

vikingBerserker · Jun 28, 2009

Oops I apoligize, I thought it had already been ID'd.

You are correct Graeme! No particular source, this particular one I got from The World's Worst Aircraft by Jim Winchester.

carson1934 · Jun 28, 2009

Tzaw1 said:
It seems, that is a small difference.
The nacelle below the fuselage is smaller and right at "232" (at foto left).
But at "451" the nacelle has central postion and is a bit greater.
And wingtips are cutted, it seems.

EDIT

From Zlatko Rendulić "Avioni domaće konstrukcije posle drugog svetskog rata" (Home constructed aircrafts after 2 WW")

Thanks Tzaw1 for the rare and detailed pics of Ikarus 232...also for the pics of the various Ikarus 451 (which I already have since some time in my files)...however I wonder why on earth were different models all designated 451's?
carson1934

Tzaw1 · Jun 28, 2009

Ask Darwin
Theoretically this is the evolution: re-building basically the same construction.

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