ALLIED HIGH ALTITUDE PLAYOFFS - Mustang vs. Thunderbolt

[epeon]

I talked to an engineer who worked on the P-47D as well as other models. He was a pilot as well and flew almost all the US inventory. Anyways, he said that the P-47D was vastly under rated because the official specifications were not accurate. They were based upon lower octane fuel. And by 1944 they were using 150 octane fuel in Europe. He said that you could easily overboost the engine and everyone did. Thus, he said that speeds in excess of 440 mph were easy to achieve. He told me that he flew a P-47D at war weights and, in tests, was able to achieve 450 mph at altitude.

 

[drgondog]

On the"Fighter vs. Interceptor" and "P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's" threads, there have been a number of comments to the effect that the P-47D hasn't been given a fair historical hearing as a result of the numerical superiority of the P-51D which has given the impression that the Mustang, as a dogfighter, reigned supreme in the skies of the ETO.

So how would the P-51D stack up against a later model P-47D (paddle blade and water injection)?

Specifically, how would the Mustang fare against the Thunderbolt at higher altitudes of say, 25,000 to 37,500 feet?

P-51B-15 - May 1944 with Wing Racks at 9680 (full combat load - no external fuel)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-level-blue.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-climb-blue.jpg

Net

Max Speed Max Climb
SL 380 4,380
20K 431 3,000
32K 410 1,200

Oct 1944 Test Comaprisons of P-47D, M and N

Summary http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/comp-p47dmn.jpg

Charts
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-speed.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-climb.jpg

Up through 32,000 feet the P-51B-15 with racks, full internal combat load, at full boost of 75" (5 minute) The 51B is faster through 29,000 feet than the P47D in this comparison, and still climbs slightly better at 32,000 feet (1,200fpm vs 1,100 fpm) The 51B-15 is faster than the M on the deck and slightly slower at 20,000 and climbs 10% slower at 20,000. At 32,000 feet the M is demonstrably faster and climbs faster.

At the end of the day, however, the P-51 in 16 months of ops in the ETO outscored the Jug AND the Lighning in combined air scores.. and more than double the P-47 during its entire Combat Operation period - at least 24 months for P-47 versus 16 for the 51.

The air to air ratio for the P-51 was 10:1, the Jug 7:1 and the Lightning 3:1.

The 'ratio' does NOT include other Combat Operations and Accident Losses.

BTW - for the 8th AF, the loss ratio of Mustangs lost while strafing is much less than the P-38 and less than the P-47. This is stricly based on USAAF Macr details regarding cause or probable cause of loss versus the Awards from USAAF VCB July 1945 totals for German a/c awards for destroyed on the ground

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/marshall/SUMMARY_OF_COMBAT_OPERATIONS.pdf

This article I wrote is going in my new book but it has all the 8th AF FC statistics to serve as a backdrop for comparing the 355th FG.

Whatever conclusions one wishes to draw about the Mustang - it was more effective at taking out the Luftwaffe than both the P-38 and P-47 combined.

 

[drgondog]

Erich, no I don't recall but it is common knowledge that there was more or less a wholesale switch from P-47's to P-51's. Your post is consistent with what I had previously read which was that the the P-51 was greatly preferred over the P-47. (You mentioned the P-47 was "absolutely hated" for escort duties.

As my post above indicates, I am hearing on this thread that many P-47 pilots were unhappy with the switch to P-51's.

My question still stands. Do you know of any specific complaints by P-47 pilots concerning the switch to P-51's?

For those that did not like the switch from P-47 to P-51 it was all about a perception of more ruggedness and reliability of the R-2800 over the Merlin/plumbing combo.

The late model D-25 and above had superior performance over the 51B and D above 30,000 feet in most categories.

But until it got the fuel that the M and N got - it got the baby sitting duties inbound and outbound while the 51s got to shoot down German a/c during target escort.. thats why the 51 had 1700 more air awards than the P-47 despite being in-theater in the ETO for 8 months less.

Besides - the primary strike zone for air combat was 2-3000 feet above the bombers all the way down to the deck and the 51 had the edge in just about every category except roll and middle zone dive speed.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

I have read a few accounts of WWII P-47 pilots who later flew in Korea and wished they still had their P-47s due to the fact that they were vulnerable in their ground attack duties with the P-51. I have even read an account of a P-40 pilot in the CBI theater who would have rather have kept his P-40 than change over to the P-51 due to the "miles of glycol plumbing" that the Merlin required (I guess since the Merlin had the intercooler it had more plumbing?).

I think that it will always depend on the pilot as far as preference. I personally would have wanted the P-47N.

 

[Zarathos]

One question? Why is Mustang D called high altitude player? I always thought, that it was powered by low altitude engine (US version of Merlin 66)?

 

[mad_max]

The early B models had the "high" alt. -3 engine. The reason it was changed out for the -7 is this engine had it's top HP at the alt. the bombers operated at and more power lower than the -3 Merlin.

Robert W. Gruenhagen - Mustang - The Story of the P-51 Fighter
ISBN 0-668-03912-4

 

[Bswademn]

Hey Gang,

I've browsed a few books on the 56th fighter group, Beware the Thunderbolt, Wolfpack, Thunderbolt and a few others I cant think of right now, but the consensus of those books it seemed, that the 56th didn't like or want the mustang for their purposes. They did mostly escort and fighter sweep duties with the strafing coming on the return home after escort release. The late model p-47 with the Hamilton? or paddle prop along with water injection\emergency boost made them superior to most axis or allied fighters above 20,000 and the 56th stayed with them till the end. I think they finished 1/2 or 1 kill behind the 4th? FG. And I get the feeling the added range of the P-51 allowed for a freer hand in looking for axis fighters.

The cool slick scoop, flashy sliver paint and Hollywood good looks of the p-51D was possibly a media magnet for the time but I think the Jugs flown by 56th knew few peers, they outdived(all), outclimbed (paddle) outran(N model) and with 8 50 cals, outshoot most opponents. And in my humble opinion a silver P-47N Thunderbolt is one of the most beautiful Combat airplanesflown, but then again I'm a fan, in case you couldn't tell.

Thanks
BSW

 

[fibus]

The AAF bought more p47s' that any other so that tells us something.
Pilots in inferior aircraft downed the best we had to offer. Example the Oscar and the p38.

Strictly on performanc and handling qualities I endorse the p47.
Over all it is piloting and tactics,
Ponder: Any model p40 would oututrn any p51 or p47 under 300 mph at 15,000 feet or less.

 

[Vincenzo]

Ponder: Any model p40 would oututrn any p51 or p47 under 300 mph at 15,000 feet or less.

i've some doubt this is true for the P-51, what is the source?

 

[scottd]

Whatever conclusions one wishes to draw about the Mustang - it was more effective at taking out the Luftwaffe than both the P-38 and P-47 combined.

Another thing to consider is that when the P-51 came into theater, it wasn't dealing with the cream of the crop Luftwaffe pilots that the P-47 and P-38 where. Then in combination with switching of roles for the P-47 and P-51, it reduced the amount of A2A engagements that the P-47 could partake in, outside of the 56th FG

 

[drgondog]

Hey Gang,

I've browsed a few books on the 56th fighter group, Beware the Thunderbolt, Wolfpack, Thunderbolt and a few others I cant think of right now, but the consensus of those books it seemed, that the 56th didn't like or want the mustang for their purposes. They did mostly escort and fighter sweep duties with the strafing coming on the return home after escort release. The late model p-47 with the Hamilton? or paddle prop along with water injection\emergency boost made them superior to most axis or allied fighters above 20,000 and the 56th stayed with them till the end. I think they finished 1/2 or 1 kill behind the 4th? FG. And I get the feeling the added range of the P-51 allowed for a freer hand in looking for axis fighters.

The 56th FG was arguably the best led and highest average skill fighter group in the USAAF. Having said this, the unquestionably cut themselves out of a much higher air to air and air to ground total by electing to stay with the P-47 while other groups converted to Mustangs. The 56th was relegated to Penetration Support escort duties and did not range past Frankfurt until the P47D-25 was introduced, and even then did not go past the Gardelegen to Augsburg radii until September/October - while the Mustangs were doing target support to Berlin, Brux, Schweinfurt, Munich and Posnan Poland from February 1944 to the EOW.

The 56th ended up as the top air to air with 660+ credits but had 1/2 of that total in March 1944 and far more than the 357th and 354th FG flying Mustangs who had just started combat ops. The latter two Mustang groups finished with 595 and 599+ despite starting combat ops 10 months and 7 months later.

The cool slick scoop, flashy sliver paint and Hollywood good looks of the p-51D was possibly a media magnet for the time but I think the Jugs flown by 56th knew few peers, they outdived(all), outclimbed (paddle) outran(N model) and with 8 50 cals, outshoot most opponents. And in my humble opinion a silver P-47N Thunderbolt is one of the most beautiful Combat airplanesflown, but then again I'm a fan, in case you couldn't tell.

Thanks
BSW

The paddle blade props took the jug from a sea level hog in climb to respectable but far from 'outclimbing' other Allied front line fighters until the M/N models - and that was only above 30,000 feet. Outdive - barely if at all with respect to the P-51 and the Tempest and the Spit XIV, outran - yes above 28,000 feet, out turn - no, out roll yes.

However the air war over Germany was fought mostly between 25,000 and the deck so the Jug was rarely able to capitalize on its major high altitude strengths.

Every 8th AF Mustang group that started with (357th), or converted to (4th, 355th, 352nd), the Mustang in March/April 1944 outscored the 56th FG in the air to the end of the war.

IMHO the 56th FG would have topped 1000 in the air had it converted to the Mustang as the first P-47 Gp (versus 4th/355th) in late February, 1944. They were handicapped by sticking to the Jug, not helped if air scores is the metric.

 

[drgondog]

Another thing to consider is that when the P-51 came into theater, it wasn't dealing with the cream of the crop Luftwaffe pilots that the P-47 and P-38 where. Then in combination with switching of roles for the P-47 and P-51, it reduced the amount of A2A engagements that the P-47 could partake in, outside of the 56th FG

The 'cream of the crop' for Luftwaffe was at its peak in June 1940 and declined therefater due to lack of foresight of senior command. The USAAF and RAF and VVS were building as the LW was declining in 1942-1943.

In the air battles over France and Holland in 1943, the USAAF 8th and 9th AF and RAF were taking out 100-200 fighters, fewer pilots (bail out, C/L). In March, April, May the LW was losing ~1000 pilots per month to the 8th AF. The major reason the P-47 didn't have a more serious impact is that the LW learned to put their fighters up beyond the range of the P-47s... and continued that policy in most cases until the late P-47D (-25 and -27) came in theatre.

As I noted above - ALL P-47 groups were relegated to Penetration and Withdrawal support while the P-38s and P-51s had Target Escort.

Having said this, the 56th FG alone had twice the air to air credits of ALL the P-38 scores combined in the 8th AF. The Mustang broke the back of the LW in the battle of Germany - not the P-47 and certainly not the P-38.

 

[Nikademus]

However the air war over Germany was fought mostly between 25,000 and the deck so the Jug was rarely able to capitalize on its major high altitude strengths.

This was my impression as well. I often see "P-47 was invincible at high altitude" type comments elsewhere but have never really found any consistant instances in my own studies where such ultra-high alt combat occured. As you stated, it was usually below 30k. It would be nice to see good comparisons between it and the 109k, the 190D and Ta-152H for this speculative high alt matchup.

 

[drgondog]

This was my impression as well. I often see "P-47 was invincible at high altitude" type comments elsewhere but have never really found any consistant instances in my own studies where such ultra-high alt combat occured. As you stated, it was usually below 30k. It would be nice to see good comparisons between it and the 109k, the 190D and Ta-152H for this speculative high alt matchup.

The Ta 152H should perform well at 35K relative to the P-47M, the P-51D, the 109K based on power loading (acceleration) and lift loading relative to the others. A P-51H with WI would be roughly equivalent to the production 152H with MW50 and a light P-47M should do well also given equivalent pilots.

In fact all were pushing limits to perform aerial combat above 35K as it is much easier to stall during energy bleed manuevers. The Ta 152H theoretically should be better near stall ranges based on extraordinary wing twist to maintain control of wing tips at near stall.

 

[Nikademus]

Interesting. Which plane do you think would have the edge in turning maneuverability above 30k? (At least initially) The P-47 tends to get described in general as "suprisingly nimble" in this situation which then tends to get generalized as "more nimble" than it's adversaries (and possibly, it's fellow Allied planes) but i've got my doubts.

 

[vanir]

I did read the P-47 had some kind of issue with the turbine impeller overspeeding at the upper ranges of its service ceiling.

Also great point there drgondog about the handling effects of high altitude flight. It's not at all the same thing as a low alt or med alt dogfight and has different rules, so has different engineering requirements for best performance. The Ta152H was specifically designed to address these in every sense, the P-47 not quite as much to such an extreme. So in one sense although the Thunderbolt alt capabilities are remarkable and it is capable, they are still apples and oranges by design I think.

Insofar as combat reports I've seen for Ta152H pilots I've read only what appears to be the accounts of those airfield protection squads, who spoke mainly about boom and zooms from 7km down to 3-5km engagement and then back up to 8km with ease. They remarked on the Ta152H diving strength and powerful zoom. I've not read any reports about high alt combat in these types and only test pilot reports of extreme high alt performance in general.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Of relevance to this discussion are the tabulated results of the Joint Fighter Conference in 1944. For what it's worth, participating Army Air Force and Navy fighter pilots who tested numerous fighters judged the P-47 to be the best fighter above 25,000 feet. The P-51 ended up second with the P-47 edging it out with more than a 15% higher vote count. Given the fact that by this time most Bolt drivers were now Mustang drivers, I think it stands to reason that there was probably an over representation of Mustang pilots who were by and large happy with their upgrade.

For best fighter below 25,000 feet, the P-51 was barely edged out by the F8F Bearcat with the F4U-1 following very closely behind the P-51.