Arnhem and Oosterbeek, June 2017.
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Good shots Terry!
Great stuff Dogsbody.
I didnt take too many pictures that day but i will post the couple had taken from on top of the bridge.
It felt amazing running up those steps to the road level of the John Frost bridge i must say.
I didnt take too many pictures that day but i will post the couple had taken from on top of the bridge.
It felt amazing running up those steps to the road level of the John Frost bridge i must say.
- Thread starter
- #44
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
What's this 'running' thing ?!
Found this pic of one of the Tiger 1s of Schwerre Panzer Kompanie 'Hummel', taken just a few yards from where we were standing at the bridge.
I reckon it was roughly where the arrow is in the second pic.
Found this pic of one of the Tiger 1s of Schwerre Panzer Kompanie 'Hummel', taken just a few yards from where we were standing at the bridge.
I reckon it was roughly where the arrow is in the second pic.
Yeah saw that one but i couldn't make out if it was there or a bit further down the road
parsifal
Colonel
man that was excellent!
Some of the history. I hope you will forgive me for this intrusion.....
It has often been said in the post war wash ups, that if the DZs for the assault had been made closer than the ones chosen, things might have turned out differently. It is to be wondered whether or not LZ-L, two miles to the east of Wolfheze, might not have been a more sensible location for their drop than the dropp II located more than 10 miles from the objective.. The Polish gliders that were to land here on the third day would have been no more hindered by the discarded parachutes than were those gliders that landed on the 1st Parachute Brigade's drop zone with the Second Lift. Furthermore, the 7th King's Own Scottish Borderers, who, in order to protect DZ-Y, were the only unit that had to march in the opposite direction from their ultimate destination, then had to proceed to secure this same zone for the arrival of the Poles.
Due to the lie of the land, it was quite impossible for large-scale glider landings to have taken place any closer to Arnhem. however it has been pointed out that Paratroopers could have been dropped in a number of places within easy reach of the bridge. The area of open-ground only a mile to the south of the Bridge, which was to be used by the Polish Brigade on the Third Lift. this DZ caught the eye of the Division's planners, but their request to land a coup-de-main force of parachutists, to seize the Bridge in advance of the rest of the Division, was turned down by the RAF due to fears of heavy flak. This refusal placed the Operation in jeopardy because it took seven hours, from the moment of the first landings, for the 2nd Battalion to reach the Bridge on foot, and it was only sheer luck that the Germans did not have the good sense to destroy it in the meantime. Major-General Richard Gale, the experienced commander of the 6th Airborne Division, recently returned from Normandy, was briefly consulted by Browning during the planning for Market Garden. He was adamant that at least one parachute brigade should have been drooped alongside the Bridge to hold it until the remainder of the Division arrived. He added that, had he been in command at Arnhem, he would have persisted with this demand to the point of resignation.
A further oversight, as regards a coup-de-main force, was made with the Railway Bridge. The Bridge was destroyed before the 2nd Battalion could capture it, yet it could very possibly have been seized intact had a small number of parachutists or glider-borne troops landed in the vicinity. Instead, as with Arnhem Bridge, the insistence of dropping the Division eight miles from Arnhem gave the Germans plenty of time to ready it for demolition. The successful capture of the Railway Bridge would have been a tremendous asset when XXX Corps arrived as it could easily support the weight of a tank, not to mention the Polish Brigade who, in the event, spent several days desperately trying to enact a crossing.
Some of the history. I hope you will forgive me for this intrusion.....
It has often been said in the post war wash ups, that if the DZs for the assault had been made closer than the ones chosen, things might have turned out differently. It is to be wondered whether or not LZ-L, two miles to the east of Wolfheze, might not have been a more sensible location for their drop than the dropp II located more than 10 miles from the objective.. The Polish gliders that were to land here on the third day would have been no more hindered by the discarded parachutes than were those gliders that landed on the 1st Parachute Brigade's drop zone with the Second Lift. Furthermore, the 7th King's Own Scottish Borderers, who, in order to protect DZ-Y, were the only unit that had to march in the opposite direction from their ultimate destination, then had to proceed to secure this same zone for the arrival of the Poles.
Due to the lie of the land, it was quite impossible for large-scale glider landings to have taken place any closer to Arnhem. however it has been pointed out that Paratroopers could have been dropped in a number of places within easy reach of the bridge. The area of open-ground only a mile to the south of the Bridge, which was to be used by the Polish Brigade on the Third Lift. this DZ caught the eye of the Division's planners, but their request to land a coup-de-main force of parachutists, to seize the Bridge in advance of the rest of the Division, was turned down by the RAF due to fears of heavy flak. This refusal placed the Operation in jeopardy because it took seven hours, from the moment of the first landings, for the 2nd Battalion to reach the Bridge on foot, and it was only sheer luck that the Germans did not have the good sense to destroy it in the meantime. Major-General Richard Gale, the experienced commander of the 6th Airborne Division, recently returned from Normandy, was briefly consulted by Browning during the planning for Market Garden. He was adamant that at least one parachute brigade should have been drooped alongside the Bridge to hold it until the remainder of the Division arrived. He added that, had he been in command at Arnhem, he would have persisted with this demand to the point of resignation.
A further oversight, as regards a coup-de-main force, was made with the Railway Bridge. The Bridge was destroyed before the 2nd Battalion could capture it, yet it could very possibly have been seized intact had a small number of parachutists or glider-borne troops landed in the vicinity. Instead, as with Arnhem Bridge, the insistence of dropping the Division eight miles from Arnhem gave the Germans plenty of time to ready it for demolition. The successful capture of the Railway Bridge would have been a tremendous asset when XXX Corps arrived as it could easily support the weight of a tank, not to mention the Polish Brigade who, in the event, spent several days desperately trying to enact a crossing.
- Thread starter
- #47
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Michael, and yes, there were a lot of compromises, due to soft ground (for gliders) and the flak threat.
It's easy now to criticise, but the deliberate ignoring of the Panzer Divisions was, of course, a major element in the outcome. But then, after so much planning, and so many cancelled drops, with the info re the Panzers arriving at 'the last minute', so to speak it's perhaps understandable.
General Urquhart actually considered dropping at least part of the first lift onto the city itself, and risk the force depletion due to landing casualties.
Health permitting, I want to go back and spend more time in the area, as there are many more museums and 'preserved sites' than my last, longer visit, in the 1970s.
It's easy now to criticise, but the deliberate ignoring of the Panzer Divisions was, of course, a major element in the outcome. But then, after so much planning, and so many cancelled drops, with the info re the Panzers arriving at 'the last minute', so to speak it's perhaps understandable.
General Urquhart actually considered dropping at least part of the first lift onto the city itself, and risk the force depletion due to landing casualties.
Health permitting, I want to go back and spend more time in the area, as there are many more museums and 'preserved sites' than my last, longer visit, in the 1970s.
One should remember that using DZ's closer to Arnhem would have meant that the a/c would have flown over Deelen, a big nightfighter base in the north of Arnhem. That would probably have ended in disaster. I believe arriving in 3 waves was a major fault in the plan. When distributing the transport a/c, Arnhem should have been given priority instead of Eindhoven, so to give those troops the biggest punch in the early hours of the assault. Another big mistake was that the allies were not flexible enough to take advantage of the panic among the Germans during Crazy Tuesday. But as Terry says, it's easy to judge afterwards.
Excellent write-up!
ok i wont post too many pics here as Terry Seems to have it covered.
these and many more like them hurt much more than i expected when i was stood in front of them
rest in peace lads
then and now
the Gronert twins
They both initially enlisted into The Hampshire Regiment before volunteering for airborne forces and attending parachute course 63 at RAF Ringway, which ran from 4 to 17 May 1943. His instructors' comments, "Has jumped well", were exactly the same as those made about his brother! Upon completion of the 8 jump course they were sent as reinforcements to the 1st Parachute Brigade, then based in North Africa, and posted to the 2nd Parachute Battalion.
The twins saw service in the Italian campaign, September – November 1943. After returning to the United Kingdom in December, they were posted to 6 Platoon, B Company of the 2nd Parachute Battalion, which was commanded by Lieutenant Peter H Cane.
On Sunday 17 September 1944, 'Tommy' and his brother Claude parachuted onto DZ (Drop Zone) X near Heelsum in Holland as part of Operation Market Garden. B Company was the second company to move off from the RV (Rendezvous Point) once the majority of the battalion had cleared the DZ. Later that day he was killed in action, along with his brother, in the railway yard of the Lower Oosterbeek Station, near the under-pass.
Pte Claude Gronert was initially buried at the junction of the Benedendorpsweg and Klingelbeekseweg railway viaduct. He now lies at rest in the Arnhem-Oosterbeek War Cemetery, in plot 18 A 18. His brother, 'Tommy', is buried next to him, in plot 18 A 17.
from the Oosterbeek perimiter, the tree in the courtyard of Oude Kerk Oosterbeek
and finally
these and many more like them hurt much more than i expected when i was stood in front of them
rest in peace lads
then and now
the Gronert twins
They both initially enlisted into The Hampshire Regiment before volunteering for airborne forces and attending parachute course 63 at RAF Ringway, which ran from 4 to 17 May 1943. His instructors' comments, "Has jumped well", were exactly the same as those made about his brother! Upon completion of the 8 jump course they were sent as reinforcements to the 1st Parachute Brigade, then based in North Africa, and posted to the 2nd Parachute Battalion.
The twins saw service in the Italian campaign, September – November 1943. After returning to the United Kingdom in December, they were posted to 6 Platoon, B Company of the 2nd Parachute Battalion, which was commanded by Lieutenant Peter H Cane.
On Sunday 17 September 1944, 'Tommy' and his brother Claude parachuted onto DZ (Drop Zone) X near Heelsum in Holland as part of Operation Market Garden. B Company was the second company to move off from the RV (Rendezvous Point) once the majority of the battalion had cleared the DZ. Later that day he was killed in action, along with his brother, in the railway yard of the Lower Oosterbeek Station, near the under-pass.
Pte Claude Gronert was initially buried at the junction of the Benedendorpsweg and Klingelbeekseweg railway viaduct. He now lies at rest in the Arnhem-Oosterbeek War Cemetery, in plot 18 A 18. His brother, 'Tommy', is buried next to him, in plot 18 A 17.
from the Oosterbeek perimiter, the tree in the courtyard of Oude Kerk Oosterbeek
and finally
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I've not covered anything, Karl as I haven't posted any pictures, yet. I feel it's more your and Terry's story than mine. But I will add some later when I'm home.
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Oops, sorry mate, i didnt check but thought you'd added some pictures
Crimea_River
Marshal
Great stuff guys, Would love to join you on trips like these in future.
You know your more than welcome Andy
What do two British ex-paratroopers look like when they are in Oosterbeek?
Terry and Karl inside Hartenstein....
Outside the old church of Oosterbeek....
I know now that ex-paras have only one big eye....
Terry and Karl inside Hartenstein....
Outside the old church of Oosterbeek....
I know now that ex-paras have only one big eye....
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But Karl actually has 2 eyes. This is him, wearing Terry's old red barret, which does look good on him, I think, although he probably won't agree..
Here Terry tries to take cover behind the corner of a house. This actually ws in the basement of Hartenstein where they really made a nice life-like diorama, which gives you a little bit the idea what it had been like (as if anything could).
Karl was not afraid, in the same basement..
At front of the old church tower. You can see the battle-scarred wall behind it. You can still see the holes made by the bullets during the battle.
Here Terry tries to take cover behind the corner of a house. This actually ws in the basement of Hartenstein where they really made a nice life-like diorama, which gives you a little bit the idea what it had been like (as if anything could).
Karl was not afraid, in the same basement..
At front of the old church tower. You can see the battle-scarred wall behind it. You can still see the holes made by the bullets during the battle.
Terry needs Kieren's bazooka !
I was distracting the sniper so Terry could shoot him !
And that was the first time in almost 30 years i had worn a red beret !
Crap i am old.....
I was distracting the sniper so Terry could shoot him !
And that was the first time in almost 30 years i had worn a red beret !
Crap i am old.....
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He missed, I didn'tTerry needs Kieren's bazooka !
I was distracting the sniper so Terry could shoot him !
And that was the first time in almost 30 years i had worn a red beret !
Crap i am old.....
Okay, some more serious stuff then.
The facade of Hartenstein, the divisional HQ of General Urquhart.
The diorama in the basement. So there are 2 stories below the surface under Hartenstein. The first one is partly as it was during ww2, the other below has this big diorama. This is that last one:
We spent some time around the old church of Oosterbeek as Terry already told before.For me that is the place for Market Garden as it was the spot where the division finally escaped in a desperate attempt to cross the river. It also served as a place to take care of the wounded. It is now standing peacefully close to the river. Form afar you won't see anything that would remind you of what happened here. The church is very old, built in the 10th century. It survived everything through the centuries even the clash between British paras and German Königstigers.
My photo of Kate ter Horst's house. edit: to be correct, this is the house behind Kate ter Horst's house. I got the location wrong.
The battered church walls, you can still see the impacts of the bullets.
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