B-29s over Germany
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Erich
the old Sage
there was actually a mission with similiar missile-wasserfall to fire on Brooklyn New York from the sea via a U-boot, it was scrubbed. also transatlantic experiments using a surface based missile-multi-stage to attack America from deep within the hills of the Reich. Besides taking the big boy JU 390 on air-stroll and firing off multiple attack missiles on European targets and America . . . but again all in the minds of technicians and the table
the high tech experimental book was inches thick during 1944-45, and as I stated too many drafts on the drawing board and no time for preparation . . . . thank goodness ! and now we are using these expanded systems created by a demented regime today
the high tech experimental book was inches thick during 1944-45, and as I stated too many drafts on the drawing board and no time for preparation . . . . thank goodness ! and now we are using these expanded systems created by a demented regime today
Erich
the old Sage
note the joy stick operator and thensingle scope radar unit for the wasserfall as it was radar assisted.
target acqueiesce or target assited Einzian and missile system with much favour argued like most of the Missile projects by senior applicators within the RLM and even the Flak arm into destruction ground the future project into the ground. over 40 testing plots and an altitiude of over 50,000 ft plenty enough to take on any high altitiude US or RAF bomber over the Reich.
again this was a joy stick operation which during the time of the war seemed to be cutting edge. In this day and age almost laughable unless we talk about the secret drones operated on similiar principles but with a TV screen camera system mounted. German teechs had already come up in late 1943 with an idea to mount them
target acqueiesce or target assited Einzian and missile system with much favour argued like most of the Missile projects by senior applicators within the RLM and even the Flak arm into destruction ground the future project into the ground. over 40 testing plots and an altitiude of over 50,000 ft plenty enough to take on any high altitiude US or RAF bomber over the Reich.
again this was a joy stick operation which during the time of the war seemed to be cutting edge. In this day and age almost laughable unless we talk about the secret drones operated on similiar principles but with a TV screen camera system mounted. German teechs had already come up in late 1943 with an idea to mount them
Attachments
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Thats some cool stuff you have there Erich.
I remember talking about TV guided bombs in an earlier thread.
The US did have a TV guided bomb in use by the end of WW2.
I remember talking about TV guided bombs in an earlier thread.
The US did have a TV guided bomb in use by the end of WW2.
Glider
Captain
Don't laugh at the Joystick approach. I have seen Seacat missiles hitting crossing targets using a joystick. Not as good as the modern stuff by far but a nice B17/24 isn't exactly a 70's jet bomber either.
A lot of anti tank nissiles were also controlled in this manner.
A lot of anti tank nissiles were also controlled in this manner.
The German guided missiles and bombs actually destroyed quite a number of allied ships, while heavily damaging others, and also some aircraft were destroyed as-well as some bridges etc etc.
So German guided missiles and bombs actually proved quite effective during the war, however by 44 the Allies had jamming devices which could disturb the guiding-system of some of these weapons, however not really efficiently.
So German guided missiles and bombs actually proved quite effective during the war, however by 44 the Allies had jamming devices which could disturb the guiding-system of some of these weapons, however not really efficiently.
Erich
the old Sage
Soren if your interested in the HS 293 and 294 may I suggest the two volumes on Luftw anti-shipping craft by Chris Goss. first volumes from Classic pubs is coming to me next week. I will be curious if Chris has found something new locked up at Pro/Kew archivs in England. the whole anti-shipping campaign in the Med and Atlantic is so little known and yes the joystick controllers fitted seemed to do a fair job but it was all up to the controller and yes if the guidance was not jammed or mother craft shot down and this was really the prime cause of failure of not reaching/hitting the ship targets ... many variables. sorry of this is getting OT
E ☼
E ☼
DaveB.inVa
Airman 1st Class
- 225
- Dec 20, 2004
syscom3 said:
The US also had a radar guided bomb called the Bat that worked particularly well against shipping. It was basically a 1000lb GP bomb with wings and a tailplane that was carried usually be PB4Y-2 Privateers. When a Japanese ship was spotted it was dropped. The ship being the only radar return that the Bat saw made it an easy target. No guidance was needed after dropping... just set it and forget it!!
However if shipping was near land of course the Bat would head for the bigger radar return of land and miss the ship. But on the open seas it worked pretty good!
Some were also modified for use against bridges, but I think these had less than stellar performance.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
I do agree.....But without the fighters you may not make it!
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Let's add to Erich's surface-to-air missiles. Here's the synopsis in brief of others-
Even before massive Allied bombing raids were crumbling Germany, several projects were commenced. The weapons systems would be cheap compared to interceptor aircraft and no pilots' lives would be risked. Ground radar guidance or telescopic human visual guidance would have directed them to targets. Safer, solid fuel powered them.
Before the Feuerlilie (Fire Lilly) Rheinmetall-Borsig did some research on a project missile called the Hecht (Pike). It was an 8.1-foot missile weighing 309 lbs. but little else survives of data.
The Feuerlilie F.55 took shape beginning in 1942. It featured a length of 15.75 feet and had a tail fin spanning 8.2 feet. It weighed 1,036 lbs. and its four liquid fuel Rheinmetall 109-515 motors of 13,970 lbs. thrust propelled it to 932 MPH by the end of its 15-mile flight to target guided by autopilot and radio command carrying a 220 lb. warhead. This SAM did not reach operational status. Two test firings were made.
The Schmetterling (Butterfly) Hs 117 was close to entering service by the end of the war. This one was 14 feet long with a 6.5-foot fin span. It weighed 981 lbs. at launch with its 55-pound proximity fuse warhead.
After the two Schmidding 109-553 launch boosters accelerated it to 680 MPH they separated and the 827 lb. thrust BMW 109-558 sustainer held a constant 537 MPH over the course of its 20-mile range. Guidance was radio link where the operator steered the missile to a bomber formation with the aid of a 10x telescope. Launch was experimented with using He 111s. From the ground an altitude of 32,808 feet could be reached.
Fifty-nine were test fired and plans for 150 per month initially in March 1945 would rise to 3,000 per moth by November 1945. Sixty sites were earmarked for launch locations.
Rheintochtor (Daughter of the Rhine) R I was more ambitious a missile from Rheinmetall-Borsig. It was a two-stage bird with an overall length of 20.75 feet and had stub wings measuring 87.4 inches in span. Dual boosters gave the missile a 165,344 lb. kick for 0.6 second. The sustaining motor pushed at 8,818 lbs. thrust for ten more seconds.
The R III was lighter by 500 lbs at 3,307 lbs. and had a 16.25-foot length. Both models had a 25-mile range but the R III could ascend to 49,213 feet where the R I could hit just 19,685 feet. The R I carried a 220 lb. warhead while the R III had one of 351 lbs. Neither saw service.
Eighty-two launches were made in test.
The Wasserfall (Waterfall) was a relatively large and sophisticated missile that came from Wernher von Braun and the Peenemunda team that worked on the A-4. It went from concept in 1942 to first launch in March 1944. Guidance was a combination of visual and electronic with the Kehl-Strassburg radio control system. Like all the missiles employing proximity fuses, the operator detonated on command or the fuse did so automatically when close to target. Warhead weight was 518 lbs.
The Peenemunda P IX motor developed 17,160 lbs. thrust for 42 seconds running on Visol (vinyl isobutyl ether) and SV-stoff, which was Salbei, or fuming nitric acid. The rocket was 25.6 feet long with an 8.2-foot fin span. All up it weighed 8,400 lbs. and reached out 22 miles at 1,700 MPH and hit an altitude of 58,071 feet but never reached the production lines.
Thirty-five were tested.
Holzbrau-Kissing took Messerschmitt's converted Me 163 design turned it into the Enzian (Gentian, violet-like flower). Models ran from the E-1 to the E-6. The end result looked little like the rocket fighter, save for the 13.1-foot wings, perhaps. The Walter 109-502 rocket of 3,300 lbs. thrust ran on the same C-stoff/T-stoff fuel that the Me 163 used. T-stoff was hydrogen peroxide and C-stoff was a nasty blend of 30% hydrazine hydrate, 57% methyl alcohol and 13% water.
The 11.5-foot was three feet in diameter and it weighed 4,350 lbs. at launch with its 550 lb. proximity fuse warhead. The E-4 was 7.9 feet long weighing 3,968 lbs. To launch this SAM four Schmidding 109-553 solid fuel boosters of 3,850 lbs. thrust each for 4.0 seconds were lit. Then the Walter ran for 70.0 seconds. 600 MPH was achieved but range was just 15.25 miles. Vertical altitude of over 50,000 feet was possible though.
The Enzian used Kehl-Strassburg or Kogge-Brigg command radio guidance systems. But more advanced hardware was planned with a Madrid IR (infrared) homing device, Moritz radar and even the Archimedes acoustic homer.
Thirty-eight trial firings were made.
Messerschmitt had a final missile planned, the E-6, which was a wire-guided anti-tank missile but no details are available.
The Taifun (Typhoon) was a last minute missile by Peenemunda at unguided, inexpensive technology. The idea was that only 1.1 lbs. of explosive was actually needed to bring down a bomber so at a cost of sixty-two 1945 US cents the 76-inch, 46.3 lb. missile was viable.
The little Visol/SV-stoff motor accelerated it to 2,237 MPH in 2.5 seconds with accuracy to aim point. Though range was but about five miles 49,213 feet in altitude was achieved. The concept was to launch salvos of these missiles against incoming bombers. Effectiveness was as good as conventional anti-aircraft guns. 600 were produced though not used.
Had any mixture of these land-based SAMs been in service sooner they would have caused some damage to Allied bomber strikes. Batteries of missiles would have freed up fighters to clean up after formations were split after missile barrages and not take the brunt of the bomber boxes' defensive armament.
Even before massive Allied bombing raids were crumbling Germany, several projects were commenced. The weapons systems would be cheap compared to interceptor aircraft and no pilots' lives would be risked. Ground radar guidance or telescopic human visual guidance would have directed them to targets. Safer, solid fuel powered them.
Before the Feuerlilie (Fire Lilly) Rheinmetall-Borsig did some research on a project missile called the Hecht (Pike). It was an 8.1-foot missile weighing 309 lbs. but little else survives of data.
The Feuerlilie F.55 took shape beginning in 1942. It featured a length of 15.75 feet and had a tail fin spanning 8.2 feet. It weighed 1,036 lbs. and its four liquid fuel Rheinmetall 109-515 motors of 13,970 lbs. thrust propelled it to 932 MPH by the end of its 15-mile flight to target guided by autopilot and radio command carrying a 220 lb. warhead. This SAM did not reach operational status. Two test firings were made.
The Schmetterling (Butterfly) Hs 117 was close to entering service by the end of the war. This one was 14 feet long with a 6.5-foot fin span. It weighed 981 lbs. at launch with its 55-pound proximity fuse warhead.
After the two Schmidding 109-553 launch boosters accelerated it to 680 MPH they separated and the 827 lb. thrust BMW 109-558 sustainer held a constant 537 MPH over the course of its 20-mile range. Guidance was radio link where the operator steered the missile to a bomber formation with the aid of a 10x telescope. Launch was experimented with using He 111s. From the ground an altitude of 32,808 feet could be reached.
Fifty-nine were test fired and plans for 150 per month initially in March 1945 would rise to 3,000 per moth by November 1945. Sixty sites were earmarked for launch locations.
Rheintochtor (Daughter of the Rhine) R I was more ambitious a missile from Rheinmetall-Borsig. It was a two-stage bird with an overall length of 20.75 feet and had stub wings measuring 87.4 inches in span. Dual boosters gave the missile a 165,344 lb. kick for 0.6 second. The sustaining motor pushed at 8,818 lbs. thrust for ten more seconds.
The R III was lighter by 500 lbs at 3,307 lbs. and had a 16.25-foot length. Both models had a 25-mile range but the R III could ascend to 49,213 feet where the R I could hit just 19,685 feet. The R I carried a 220 lb. warhead while the R III had one of 351 lbs. Neither saw service.
Eighty-two launches were made in test.
The Wasserfall (Waterfall) was a relatively large and sophisticated missile that came from Wernher von Braun and the Peenemunda team that worked on the A-4. It went from concept in 1942 to first launch in March 1944. Guidance was a combination of visual and electronic with the Kehl-Strassburg radio control system. Like all the missiles employing proximity fuses, the operator detonated on command or the fuse did so automatically when close to target. Warhead weight was 518 lbs.
The Peenemunda P IX motor developed 17,160 lbs. thrust for 42 seconds running on Visol (vinyl isobutyl ether) and SV-stoff, which was Salbei, or fuming nitric acid. The rocket was 25.6 feet long with an 8.2-foot fin span. All up it weighed 8,400 lbs. and reached out 22 miles at 1,700 MPH and hit an altitude of 58,071 feet but never reached the production lines.
Thirty-five were tested.
Holzbrau-Kissing took Messerschmitt's converted Me 163 design turned it into the Enzian (Gentian, violet-like flower). Models ran from the E-1 to the E-6. The end result looked little like the rocket fighter, save for the 13.1-foot wings, perhaps. The Walter 109-502 rocket of 3,300 lbs. thrust ran on the same C-stoff/T-stoff fuel that the Me 163 used. T-stoff was hydrogen peroxide and C-stoff was a nasty blend of 30% hydrazine hydrate, 57% methyl alcohol and 13% water.
The 11.5-foot was three feet in diameter and it weighed 4,350 lbs. at launch with its 550 lb. proximity fuse warhead. The E-4 was 7.9 feet long weighing 3,968 lbs. To launch this SAM four Schmidding 109-553 solid fuel boosters of 3,850 lbs. thrust each for 4.0 seconds were lit. Then the Walter ran for 70.0 seconds. 600 MPH was achieved but range was just 15.25 miles. Vertical altitude of over 50,000 feet was possible though.
The Enzian used Kehl-Strassburg or Kogge-Brigg command radio guidance systems. But more advanced hardware was planned with a Madrid IR (infrared) homing device, Moritz radar and even the Archimedes acoustic homer.
Thirty-eight trial firings were made.
Messerschmitt had a final missile planned, the E-6, which was a wire-guided anti-tank missile but no details are available.
The Taifun (Typhoon) was a last minute missile by Peenemunda at unguided, inexpensive technology. The idea was that only 1.1 lbs. of explosive was actually needed to bring down a bomber so at a cost of sixty-two 1945 US cents the 76-inch, 46.3 lb. missile was viable.
The little Visol/SV-stoff motor accelerated it to 2,237 MPH in 2.5 seconds with accuracy to aim point. Though range was but about five miles 49,213 feet in altitude was achieved. The concept was to launch salvos of these missiles against incoming bombers. Effectiveness was as good as conventional anti-aircraft guns. 600 were produced though not used.
Had any mixture of these land-based SAMs been in service sooner they would have caused some damage to Allied bomber strikes. Batteries of missiles would have freed up fighters to clean up after formations were split after missile barrages and not take the brunt of the bomber boxes' defensive armament.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Twitch said:
Assuming that there were no allied escort fighters around.
Erich
the old Sage
Syscom a freind of the famile was involved with the V-1 launches on England early war and then transferred to a local flak batterie and then with his earlier experience to experimental missile test centers. He still has some interesting info regarding the useage of ground to air materails inclusive of airfield defence and long range up to 50,000 ft but I must await his demise before I can post any of it upon his promised wishes.
safe to say that the Rocket-flak batteries would of sent up huge numbers of missiles to explode at an aprox altitiude and as Twitch said then allow Luftw fighters to take care of the chaotic mess, and the assumption that even with US fighters flying at an upper alt. of 1000 feet or higher, they too would of been part of the initial carnage. . . . . . who knows really as only several tests/firing ops against B-17 formations occurred in 45.
safe to say that the Rocket-flak batteries would of sent up huge numbers of missiles to explode at an aprox altitiude and as Twitch said then allow Luftw fighters to take care of the chaotic mess, and the assumption that even with US fighters flying at an upper alt. of 1000 feet or higher, they too would of been part of the initial carnage. . . . . . who knows really as only several tests/firing ops against B-17 formations occurred in 45.
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
There would be far less of need for multitudes of slow and lethargic Zertroyers overburdened with armor that were used to attempt to break up formations. Wading into the firing range of several hundred .50s was not done with relish by rocket toting Ju 88 or Me 110 "formation breakers" that couldn't get out of their own way much less P-51s'.
Since there was no way to destroy all the heavies the next best thing was to destroy their accuracy. The way that was accomplished was to break up formations. Without concentrated accracy on targets the bombers' efforts would be thwarted.
"Regular" fighters could be used to take on escorts and seek out bombers not protected in the "box" formation. 190A-8s overweight with armor and up to 8 20 mms were no match for P-51s. Ta 152s and other normally balanced fighters would have had a much better advantage. And remember, if the heavy's formations were broke up from SAM barrages the escort fighters would be too.
Since there was no way to destroy all the heavies the next best thing was to destroy their accuracy. The way that was accomplished was to break up formations. Without concentrated accracy on targets the bombers' efforts would be thwarted.
"Regular" fighters could be used to take on escorts and seek out bombers not protected in the "box" formation. 190A-8s overweight with armor and up to 8 20 mms were no match for P-51s. Ta 152s and other normally balanced fighters would have had a much better advantage. And remember, if the heavy's formations were broke up from SAM barrages the escort fighters would be too.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich, we all wait your information. As usual, youre an endless supply of great material!
Twitch, the escort fighters would have to be right in with the bombers for them to be affected by the rocket barrage. Usually they were flying a lot higher than the bombers and not necessarily "right on top of them". The rocket barrage would have no impact on the fighter escorts.
Twitch, the escort fighters would have to be right in with the bombers for them to be affected by the rocket barrage. Usually they were flying a lot higher than the bombers and not necessarily "right on top of them". The rocket barrage would have no impact on the fighter escorts.
Erich
the old Sage
Sys that totally depends on what type of missile batteries were in action, and that was the point as it was for regular Flak ground batteries around larger industrial or population centers. 88's and then outside were 105's and single 128mm's....... the idea would of been similiar with surface to air missiles except they would of been dug in quite well and camo'd. due to the ground smoke of course there was ways in theory to alleviate the smoke or at least make it rrail off in some fashion so as not to present such a noticeable target for jabos.
notiec on the Rhine daughter how the rockets would of been employed on their rails. the unit or supported system was dug in a bomb-proof bunker..........correct in theory again as a splinter type box. Sadly I do not see any particualrs yet as to how they would of been spaced out but they could of been fiored in groups of 8 or more but that is talking a fairly large area of ground, easy enough to be spotted and pounded into the ground by jabos or even 4-engine heavies. the idea alos of clearings in the ehavy spruce forests was also looked upon making deteection especially from low flying intruders much more difficult. Granted this would of only allowed for high range to vertical visual findings of the ehavy bombers due to tree height
notiec on the Rhine daughter how the rockets would of been employed on their rails. the unit or supported system was dug in a bomb-proof bunker..........correct in theory again as a splinter type box. Sadly I do not see any particualrs yet as to how they would of been spaced out but they could of been fiored in groups of 8 or more but that is talking a fairly large area of ground, easy enough to be spotted and pounded into the ground by jabos or even 4-engine heavies. the idea alos of clearings in the ehavy spruce forests was also looked upon making deteection especially from low flying intruders much more difficult. Granted this would of only allowed for high range to vertical visual findings of the ehavy bombers due to tree height
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich, in the case of the guided rockets, they would have been degraded by the ammount of cloud cover.
Erich
the old Sage
not if given preset co-ordinates/fuses to fire from at a given height. It was determined even through cloud decks as to what the height was of the bomber formations even after they grouped over England, the Luftwaffe knew elevation coming over the Reich for both bombers and fighters. Such gloomy stats for the German day fighter pilots as they witnessed the paper=telex's coming in of 500 to 1500 US fighters airborne and they would have to naturally go up into that to reach the bombers and only by sheer luck did they get through and attack the bombers frrely from escort interference. Miles of rocket batteris "could of" been had all along the main bomber streams to Hamburg and Vienna but obviously it never happened. I throw this out knowing full well it does not apply now but could the SAM's been a deterent or could it have slowed the war down and with it ending in the fall of 45 ? ......... possibly, but . . . .
As Erich has mentioned the rocket sites would be vulnerable to Allied air-power. Both V-1 and V-2 rocket sites were destroyed, even when they were mobile launch sites. The AA rocket sites would not be able to fire back at the ground-attack craft coming down to get them, unless they wanted to waste a rocket and then take a while reloading it. Unless these sites are protected by a lot of 20-mm FlaK cannon, but this is excess resources. At least the heavy FlaK cannon would be able to fire back at Allied craft time and time again because it's a lot easier to load a shell than it is a missile.
When these missiles are fired up at the formation, I will assume that they will be launched together to cause mass chaos. Isn't that what the heavy FlaK was supposed to do? Massive clouds of shrapnel didn't break up the bomber formations, so why assume these missiles would?
I would hope for Germany's sake that these missiles would be so much more useful to make up for the extra time and money it takes to build a rocket than it does a shell. I may be jumping a little ahead, and am prepared to make a fool of myself here but, during Vietnam the Vietcong SAMs were unable to stop the B-52s attacking them and they were guided systems. Why should we assume that these primitive systems would be able to A) Hit the target B) Break up the formations C) Hit the escorts too and, finally, why should we assume that the German interceptors would be able to follow up against the formation and destroy the escorts then the bombers?
I just don't see the masses of bombers just all breaking apart because some are destroyed, or there's a hail of missiles. Throughout the war they'd been dealing with a clouds of shrapnel, swarms of enemy fighters, and destructive weaponary from Germany but they never broke formation. Nor do I see the escorts being broken up, since the escorts were not hanging near the formation. The Allied escorts were roaming around the sky, in front, above or behind the formation. And even if these escorts were broken up, the few interceptors to rise up and meet them would still be out-numbered by at least five to one.
I am actually quite interested in these rockets, as I've read a little and seen a couple of documentaries. And I would like to know more. But I honestly don't see them being as devestating as they're made out. It's all assumption.
When these missiles are fired up at the formation, I will assume that they will be launched together to cause mass chaos. Isn't that what the heavy FlaK was supposed to do? Massive clouds of shrapnel didn't break up the bomber formations, so why assume these missiles would?
I would hope for Germany's sake that these missiles would be so much more useful to make up for the extra time and money it takes to build a rocket than it does a shell. I may be jumping a little ahead, and am prepared to make a fool of myself here but, during Vietnam the Vietcong SAMs were unable to stop the B-52s attacking them and they were guided systems. Why should we assume that these primitive systems would be able to A) Hit the target B) Break up the formations C) Hit the escorts too and, finally, why should we assume that the German interceptors would be able to follow up against the formation and destroy the escorts then the bombers?
I just don't see the masses of bombers just all breaking apart because some are destroyed, or there's a hail of missiles. Throughout the war they'd been dealing with a clouds of shrapnel, swarms of enemy fighters, and destructive weaponary from Germany but they never broke formation. Nor do I see the escorts being broken up, since the escorts were not hanging near the formation. The Allied escorts were roaming around the sky, in front, above or behind the formation. And even if these escorts were broken up, the few interceptors to rise up and meet them would still be out-numbered by at least five to one.
I am actually quite interested in these rockets, as I've read a little and seen a couple of documentaries. And I would like to know more. But I honestly don't see them being as devestating as they're made out. It's all assumption.
