Battle of Britain without Hawker Hurricane; pick another fighter
- Thread starter Jerry W. Loper
- Start date
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
During the 1930s the USA was not the largest aluminum producer. Germany was and shipping costs from Germany would be considerably lower then shipping costs from North America.
Britain began a detente with Germany during 1935. Prior to 1939 Britain could probably barter oil (from British occupied southern Iran) and bauxite (from British occupied Jamica) for aluminum ingots produced in Germany. Who knows, maybe increased trade would bring British and German national leaders closer together. Nobody wants to fight their best trading partner.
Britain began a detente with Germany during 1935. Prior to 1939 Britain could probably barter oil (from British occupied southern Iran) and bauxite (from British occupied Jamica) for aluminum ingots produced in Germany. Who knows, maybe increased trade would bring British and German national leaders closer together. Nobody wants to fight their best trading partner.
Hello Dave
I doubt that, global trade was fairly integrated before WWI and British found hard way the downside of that when they declared war against Germany in Aug 14. in later part of 30s GB was arming against Germany, I doubt that they would wanted to be dependent on their No 1 potential enemy on such an important resource as aluminium. Of course there were exceptions like the dependence of Italian powerful boat engines, but RN didn't see MTBs and MGBs critical equipment in late 30s.
Juha
I doubt that, global trade was fairly integrated before WWI and British found hard way the downside of that when they declared war against Germany in Aug 14. in later part of 30s GB was arming against Germany, I doubt that they would wanted to be dependent on their No 1 potential enemy on such an important resource as aluminium. Of course there were exceptions like the dependence of Italian powerful boat engines, but RN didn't see MTBs and MGBs critical equipment in late 30s.
Juha
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Marxist France and the Soviet Union began huge military expansions during the mid 1930s. They were as great a threat to Britain as Germany was. Italy and Japan were also serious threats. 1930s Britain had no idea who they would be fighting or who their allies might be.
Under such circumstances it makes a lot of sense to follow up the 1935 Ango-German detente with a trade agreement. Maybe the detente can become an entente. You can never have too many friends in a dangerous world.
Under such circumstances it makes a lot of sense to follow up the 1935 Ango-German detente with a trade agreement. Maybe the detente can become an entente. You can never have too many friends in a dangerous world.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
It is iffy if the F4F3 was able to be operational in quanity by BOB but if it could be, in my mind it would take over the Hurricane job admirably.
Now British had clear idea that the No 1 potential enemy was Germany and that France would be their ally, BEF was designed to move to France if a war against Germany broke out and RAF and French AF had some co-operation in late 30s.
GB didn't want a war and was ready appease Germany but Germany was anyway saw as potential enemy.
Juha
davebender
1st Lieutenant
During 1936 to 1938 Britain and France supported opposite sides in the Spanish Civil War, which was essentially a war vs the Comintern. How could Britain be certain of France as an ally under those circumstances?
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
They had enough to justify opening a new factory, just for Spitfires, at Castle Bromwich, and every bomber not built frees up enough metal for a couple of Spitfires (at least.) There was also the Civilian Repair Organisation (started pre-war) which returned hundreds of repaired metal aircraft to the front line. Maybe we had the edge because we used aluminium, not aluminum?
Shortround6
Major General
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muscogeemike
Senior Airman
Interesting choice - the Martlet was in FAA service prior to the Battle of Brit. ending and got its first "kill" in Dec 1940. It was surly the best Naval Fighter available to GB but I don't think it would have served the RAF as well as the P-36/40 at this stage of the war.
rank amateur
Airman 1st Class
rank amateur
Airman 1st Class
France most certainly supported the republican side. The UK was not that outspoken. There were no British planes flying over Spanish soil. You can debate the level of democratism of the democratic parties fighting on the republican side but Franco was nothing less than a dictator.
rank amateur
Airman 1st Class
A de-navalised version of the Martlet should surely have some edge over the Hurricane? But then again at that period there must have been contacts with the Brewster company. I wonder if the Buffalo wouldn't been opted for. The first Hurricane flew in 1936? No such thing as a Martlet or a Buffalo then.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... In this universe there has never been such a thing as a communist France."
Just communist workers and communist unions.
MM
Just communist workers and communist unions.
MM
Read the April 37 part from here H.M.S. Hood Association-Battle Cruiser Hood: History of H.M.S. Hood - Career Timeline of H.M.S. Hood, the British attitude was much more complicated than you claim.
Juha
Only Defiants and Battles make some 3000 examples combined, almost all prior BoB were made. That points to the number of Merlins made, too - UK was in far better situation re. engines than Germany any time in war IMO, both power-wise numbers produced. And then we add what was received via LL...
Spain was lucky to end up with Franco. There is a recent trend of misrepresenting the "Repubican Forces" as Freedom fighters rather than incipient communist thugs who had begun threatening Stalanist Style purges.
The standard narrative has long been that of a military coup against a democratic government and the noble Spanish people, supported by foreign idealists, heroically fighting evil "fascists." This is a grotesque distortion of the truth, and stands as one of the most flagrant examples of how propaganda has been uncritically accepted as official history.
First, it must be emphasized that the Leftist Spanish regime at the time of the nationalist revolt was by no means a coalition of mildly progressive liberals and socialists as it is usually described, but was, in fact, a reign of Communist and anarchist terror. Secondly, less than half of the Spanish military rebelled. The government forces were also at least as well equipped as the nationalist rebels, and they had greater economic resources at their disposal.
The escalation of violence in the years after the Leftist government under a liberal Freemason came to power becomes clear when one looks at the statistics: no bombings in 1930, then 175 in1931, 428 in1932 and 1,156 in1933. Towards the end of 1933, new elections were held that resulted in a great victory for a center-Right coalition. Predictably, this led to an intensification of the violence from the extreme Left. On 1 July 1934, former Prime Minister Azaña declared, "We prefer any kind of catastrophe to a Republic in the hands of monarchists and fascists, even if it means bloodshed."
This soon came to pass, and on a large scale. On 5 October 1934, an attempt at revolution against the legally elected government was made in Asturias, on the north coast. The revolutionary forces consisted of 20,000 socialist miners, 6,000 Communists and uncounted thousands of anarchists. After 17 days of Red terror, including such atrocities as the slaughter of 34 priests, members of religious orders and seminarians, the Army intervened. Two days of fighting resulted in 1,300 dead and over 3,000 wounded. One of the generals in command was Francisco Franco, who has since been criticized for having dealt too harshly with the Reds. However, at the time, anyone of normal intelligence understood what a Communist regime would mean, and realized that any attempt to establish such a regime had to be firmly nipped in the bud. The Communist massacres in Russia and during Bela Kùn's short-lived, but blood-soaked, reign in Hungary had not yet been smoothed over and hushed up in the manner which was to become the norm in the post-war Western world.
