Battle of Britain without Hawker Hurricane; pick another fighter

[Siegfried]

Only Defiants and Battles make some 3000 examples combined, almost all prior BoB were made. That points to the number of Merlins made, too - UK was in far better situation re. engines than Germany any time in war IMO, both power-wise numbers produced. And then we add what was received via LL...

There appear to have been a whole line of second tier manufacturers that could have had products: Fairey, Bristol.

 

[tomo pauk]

Would you please elaborate; perhaps you are referring to designed, but non produced engines?

 

[nuuumannn]

The bigger problem is that many UK factories are not used to making Monocoque fuselages, but covered tube frame fuselages. If you have tooling and expertise to make a P-36 you can make a Spitfire. The number of Fairely Battles, Blenheims, Hampdens, Whitleys and other all metal aircraft should put to rest any notion that the British were short of aluminum before the war.

Yep, couldn't agree more. I didn't realise the supply of ali in Britain pre WW2 was an issue.

The F4F/Martlett is a good choice, but I still think before the war started the British would not contemplate buying a foreign built fighter over a British one. It would have to be more Spits, and yes, Mike, you are right, likely less numbers than what there were Hurris, but you can guarantee that Spit production would have been accelerated, and likely another fighter design also, during the Munich Crisis. You also underestimate what the Brits could achieve under pressure.

A revision of F.5/34 (Gloster and Martin Baker; the mean looking MB.2)? Accelerated development of the Boulton Paul Defiant? The same of the Westland Whirlwind to F.37/35? You could also guess that the specification that became F.18/37 (which produced the Hawker Tornado and Typhoon) could have been pushed forward had nothing further come along; other than Hawker, both Bristol and Gloster produced designs for this.

 

[Siegfried]

Would you please elaborate; perhaps you are referring to designed, but non produced engines?

Both Fairey and Bristol were capable of producing both engines and all metal airframes. With Hawkers Hurricane out of the way the road would be clear for these two.

Im suggest something equal to a spitfire with less compund curves (no elliptical wings). The RAF emphasis on handling would still be there. Fairey probably could use the Monarch H engine but I immagine the Merlin or Hercules engine would still be a conditate.

There is also the possibillity of a Hercules engined fighter; a radial engined aircraft could scarecelly be slower than the Hurricane while also relieving Rolls Royce of Merlin production issues.

 

[merlin]

Firstly - Aluminium - according to the Wilfred Freeman biography, "The Air Ministry calculated that in 1939 the aircraft programme would absorb 90,000 tons of raw aluminium per annum, whereas total British output was only 30,000 tons. British production could be increased to 41,000 tons, but the rest would have to be imported."
The Canadian aluminium industry was tapped with 100,000 tons output - with extra capacity built - so that the Air Ministry could import 60% of Canadian output.

Secondly - difficult to know where this unavailability of the Hurricance could occur!?
? In mid-40 is just too late to arrange any alternative in numbers, and what happened to the RAF Hurricanes in France?
If earlier - if there is a structural problem with the aircraft similar to the problems with the Typhon that questioned it's continued existence -
Options:
Gloster F.5/34, Boulton-Paul P.88 - seem the likeliest candidates (the Bristol 153 - didn't make the 'cut' - so I don't include it). The later the problem occurs - single-seat Defiant, US aircraft may get a 'look-in' but only if domestic suppliers can't cope! For Example 'Martlet' could have had British order before the French IMHO.
But there again - this could have happened even with the Hurricane!

 

[Shortround6]

Both Fairey and Bristol were capable of producing both engines and all metal airframes. With Hawkers Hurricane out of the way the road would be clear for these two.

Im suggest something equal to a spitfire with less compund curves (no elliptical wings). The RAF emphasis on handling would still be there. Fairey probably could use the Monarch H engine but I immagine the Merlin or Hercules engine would still be a conditate.

There is also the possibillity of a Hercules engined fighter; a radial engined aircraft could scarecelly be slower than the Hurricane while also relieving Rolls Royce of Merlin production issues.

Fairey was in no position to supply engines. It is one thing to build a few prototypes and test them. It is another to have 10s of thousands of sq ft (some American engine factories approached a 1/2 Million sq ft for a single factory by 1944) fully equipped with machine tools and casting/forging equipment and trained workers. It would have taken 2-3 years after a Fairey engine was selected for them to deliver them in large quantities.
The Hercules is also a no go for The BoB. Bristol just barely got it into production at the time they did. Prototypes ran great, getting the production engines to not use oil like a diesel took a while. The reason there were Merlin powered Beaufighters and Merlin powered Wellingtons was because of a lack (or perceived lack) of Hercules engines.
Speed is another issue. Slow as the Hurricane might have been the British weren't exactly masters of the low drag cowling in 1939/40 (actually, nobody was). The P-36 had 22% more drag than the Early P-40s. You are going to need a LOT of streamlining to counter that kind of drag difference.

 

[renrich]

For a number of years the Japanese, especially the IJN had a close realtionship with the UK. If the RAF had gotten their hands on a bunch of A6Ms the Jerries would have been in a heap of trouble.

 

[tomo pauk]

So would the Japanese?

 

[Readie]

For a number of years the Japanese, especially the IJN had a close realtionship with the UK. If the RAF had gotten their hands on a bunch of A6Ms the Jerries would have been in a heap of trouble.

Maybe, but the Zero was too lightly armed. You would need 8 .303's at least to meet the LW on equal terms.
John

 

[Siegfried]

Fairey was in no position to supply engines. It is one thing to build a few prototypes and test them. It is another to have 10s of thousands of sq ft (some American engine factories approached a 1/2 Million sq ft for a single factory by 1944) fully equipped with machine tools and casting/forging equipment and trained workers. It would have taken 2-3 years after a Fairey engine was selected for them to deliver them in large quantities.
The Hercules is also a no go for The BoB. Bristol just barely got it into production at the time they did. Prototypes ran great, getting the production engines to not use oil like a diesel took a while. The reason there were Merlin powered Beaufighters and Merlin powered Wellingtons was because of a lack (or perceived lack) of Hercules engines.
Speed is another issue. Slow as the Hurricane might have been the British weren't exactly masters of the low drag cowling in 1939/40 (actually, nobody was). The P-36 had 22% more drag than the Early P-40s. You are going to need a LOT of streamlining to counter that kind of drag difference.

Fairy was a large and capable engineering group, most famous for its hydraulics. It certainly had the capital, expertise and managment to get reasonable mass production going though it would need help.

The mythology of the Spitifre and Mitchell overshadows that Britiain and several capable companies such as Fairy, Westland, Bristol, Gloster.

For instance the Westland Whirlwind had stunning peformance equal to that of the Spitfire, if equiped with Taurus engines it could have been flown earlier and deliveries (October 39) could have been earlier. Gloster F.5/34 could have been in production earlier than the Hurricane and likely developed with the Taurus or even Hercules.

Of course all of thes companies could also have accessed the Merlin/PV12.

 

[Siegfried]

Maybe, but the Zero was too lightly armed. You would need 8 .303's at least to meet the LW on equal terms.
John

The A6M2 entered service in June 40, the Me 109F1 about 3-4 months latter. The Me 109E7/N was already in service. A6M2 might have had the marginal better of P-40s and Wildcats post Perl Harbour but speedy European fighters (The Germans would be flying Me 109G1's 5 months after Pearl Harbour) would be another matter. RAAF Spitfire V had no problem defeating the Betty's and A6M2 that attacked Darwin, earlier P-40 did well as soon as the Australians installed their own indigenous developed radar

 

[renrich]

Your statements about the RAAF Spitfires and the A6M are at variance with the facts. Read "Bloody Shambles" by Shores. The A6M was as well armed as the 109s and with it's endurance it could go on station, loiter and be able to hit the German raids from above and then be on station some more. Obviously the Japanese would never supply Zekes to Britain even if they were available but if either side had them during the BOB they would have been a big asset.

 

[johnbr]

Miles M 20 with radiators in wing leadingage and retractable undercarriage.

 

[Milosh]

RAAF Spitfire V had no problem defeating the Betty's and A6M2 that attacked Darwin

Sure they did.

On 3/2/43...21 Zero's escort 9 Betty's ..24 Spitfires rose up but niether side lost anything.

On 3/15/43 ...19 Betty's escorted by 26 Zero's engaged 27 Spitfire V's ..only 1 Zero is lost to 4 Spitfire V's.

On 5/2/43..18 Betty's escorted by 26 Zero's engage 33 Spitfires..all IJN aircraft returned safely to Timor but 4 Spitfires suffer CSU failures due to high throttle settings for so long,5 run out of fuel,and 4 force land. However 5 Spitfires were lost to air to air combat.

On 5/9/43..9 Zero's met 5 Spitfires ..1 Zero is lost and another crashed landed after getting back to Timor with 1 Spitfire going down to enemy action.

On 5/28/43..9 betty's escorted by 7 Zero's met 6 Spitfires with 2 Betty's getting shot down,1 crashing after returning home, and 2 Spitfires getting shot down. This was the first time after 5 raids that the Spitfires shot down an attacking bomber.

On 6/20/43...18 Hellens, 9 Lilly's escorted by 22 Ki-43's took on 46 Spitfires with 3 Spitfires being lost to 1 Ki-43 1 Ki-49.

On 6/28/43...9 Betty's were escorted by 27 Zero's met 42 Spitfires .The attackers suffered no losses to 2 Spitfires.

On 6/30/43...23 Betty's escorted by 27 Zero's met 38 Spitfires . Results were 5 Spitfires lost to 1 Betty.

On /6/43...21 Betty's escorted by 25 Zero's ran into 36 Spitfires .Losses were 6 Spitfires to 2 Betty's though 2 betty's crashed after getting back to Timor.

On 9/13/43 ..3 Dinahs escorted by 36 Zero's met 48 Spitfires with 3 Spitfires going down to 1 Zero.

Total losses= 6 Betty's/Lilly's/Dinah's , 3 Zero's and 1 Ki-43 to 31 Spitfires.

 

[Shortround6]

Fairy was a large and capable engineering group, most famous for its hydraulics. It certainly had the capital, expertise and managment to get reasonable mass production going though it would need help.

You might have that backwards, granted it is Wiki but: Fairey Aviation Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It took American Companies around 1 1/2 to two years to set up brand new factories from the ground up to mass produce aircraft engines. Like Ford getting over 14 Million from the Government JUST to build the factory to make R-2800s under licence from P&W, Ford management with their expertise simply duplicated the P&W main plant as close as they could.

For instance the Westland Whirlwind had stunning peformance equal to that of the Spitfire, if equiped with Taurus engines it could have been flown earlier and deliveries (October 39) could have been earlier. Gloster F.5/34 could have been in production earlier than the Hurricane and likely developed with the Taurus or even Hercules.

If equipped with the Taurus the Whirlwind would have been in serious trouble, Early Taurus engines being even more trouble prone than the the Peregrine and never rated in service for anything but low altitude work.

It would be a little hard for the Gloster F.5/34 to be in production before the Hurricane unless the RAF bought a pig in a poke. It didn't begin flight trials until the Hurricane was already in service the Spitfire was in production. (in service and in production are not the same thing)

 

[rank amateur]

Spain was lucky to end up with Franco. There is a recent trend of misrepresenting the "Repubican Forces" as Freedom fighters rather than incipient communist thugs who had begun threatening Stalanist Style purges.

The standard narrative has long been that of a military coup against a democratic government and the noble Spanish people, supported by foreign idealists, heroically fighting evil "fascists." This is a grotesque distortion of the truth, and stands as one of the most flagrant examples of how propaganda has been uncritically accepted as official history.

First, it must be emphasized that the Leftist Spanish regime at the time of the nationalist revolt was by no means a coalition of mildly progressive liberals and socialists as it is usually described, but was, in fact, a reign of Communist and anarchist terror. Secondly, less than half of the Spanish military rebelled. The government forces were also at least as well equipped as the nationalist rebels, and they had greater economic resources at their disposal.

The escalation of violence in the years after the Leftist government under a liberal Freemason came to power becomes clear when one looks at the statistics: no bombings in 1930, then 175 in1931, 428 in1932 and 1,156 in1933. Towards the end of 1933, new elections were held that resulted in a great victory for a center-Right coalition. Predictably, this led to an intensification of the violence from the extreme Left. On 1 July 1934, former Prime Minister Azaña declared, "We prefer any kind of catastrophe to a Republic in the hands of monarchists and fascists, even if it means bloodshed."

This soon came to pass, and on a large scale. On 5 October 1934, an attempt at revolution against the legally elected government was made in Asturias, on the north coast. The revolutionary forces consisted of 20,000 socialist miners, 6,000 Communists and uncounted thousands of anarchists. After 17 days of Red terror, including such atrocities as the slaughter of 34 priests, members of religious orders and seminarians, the Army intervened. Two days of fighting resulted in 1,300 dead and over 3,000 wounded. One of the generals in command was Francisco Franco, who has since been criticized for having dealt too harshly with the Reds. However, at the time, anyone of normal intelligence understood what a Communist regime would mean, and realized that any attempt to establish such a regime had to be firmly nipped in the bud. The Communist massacres in Russia and during Bela Kùn's short-lived, but blood-soaked, reign in Hungary had not yet been smoothed over and hushed up in the manner which was to become the norm in the post-war Western world.

The Spanish civil war is one of the most interesting conflicts in the 20st century but can not be seen seperate from the preceding 500 years of Iberic history. The Catalan and Bask seperations movements chose to fight on the republican side. I fail to see their reasons but they had nothing to do with the conflict at hand. Furthermore it is rather blindsighted to use the frase 'communist thugs', There must have been dozens of anarchistic, marxists, syndicalistic, Trotskist or whatever groups around that were not only batteling against Franco but also eachother. They wouldn't be your friend if you called them communist. The Spanish civil war is worth further debate, but not on this site.
To conclude this, there was no such thing as a wrong or a right side in the conflict. Just thank god you weren't born then and had to choose between evils.

 

[Vincenzo]

historically what plane coming 2nd in the specifications win to hurricane?

 

[Edgar Brooks]

historically what plane coming 2nd in the specifications win to hurricane?

Nothing; the Hurricane had its own, unique, specification F.36/34, which became 15/36 for the develoment/Mk.I; the Spitfire was F.37/34, which became 16/36.

 

[davebender]

Pierre Cot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many historians think Leon Blum's Air Minister (Pierre Cot) was a Soviet agent. Apparently Charles de Gaulle thought so also.

He flew to London and offered his services to Charles de Gaulle's Free French movement, but de Gaulle considered him to be too pro-Communist and offered him no position.

Endorsement by the French Communist Party during 1967 doesn't help his "not a communist" reputation either.

In 1967 he made a final return to politics when he was elected as an independent Deputy for Paris, with the backing of the Communist Party.

 

[Elmas]

It has to be said that cantilever wings and D-boxes wing spars with stressed skins in aluminium were still in their infancy in early '30s when the design of all the fighters that fought the WWII begun, as the first studies about bending and stretching of thin plates were the results of the theoretical efforts of engineers, mostly Germans, in the early 20's.

As it seemed almost an impossible thing both to most Aeronautical Engineers and Members of Technical Staff of the Air Forces that such wings would remain attached to the airframe in a dive without the precious aid of some tiny wires, the first aircrafts with cantilever wings had safety factors much greater than effectively needed.

In particular in a cantilever wing the tickness of the wing airfoil was ( is....) extremely important: as the Moment of Inertia depends from the third power of the height, a wing with an airfoil 18% thickness is several times stiffer and stronger than one with the 12%, all other parameters (tipe and tickness of material) unchanged.

But a thicker airfoil presents, of course, much more drag, that increases with the square of the speed....

So no doubt that the first monoplanes, like the Hurricane, had very thick wing airfoils, that prevented their further developments.

And so many others of the period like the Italian A.U.T. 18

whose designer, Ing. Felice Trojani, clearly states in his memories that " the safety factor of the aeroplane was too large".