Battle of Britain without Hawker Hurricane; pick another fighter

[slaterat]

Without the Hurricane the BoB is a definite loss for the RAF and probably a change in the outcome of the war. If Sydney Camm and Hawker hadn't forged ahead with the concept of the "single wing Fury", the RAF would of been stuck flying Gloster Gladiators and uprated Furys during the BoB. Spitfire production was already pushed to the max and there simply wouldn't have been any more of them.

The list of possible substitutes, assuming enough of them could be built or purchased in time, are rather uninspiring and fall short of the Hurri in crucial areas critical to the RAF success in the BoB. The Martlet, Buffalo and Tomahawk when equipped to RAF standards all had climbrates of less than 2000/ft min. The Hawk 75 has a similar initial climbrate to the Hurri of around 2,600 ft/min, however it is slower and lighter armed with only 6 x.303s. RAF testing demonstrated that the Hurris high speed handling was far superior too , at 390 mph IAS the hawk takes 5.2 sec to 45 degree bank , while the Hurri takes only1.9 .

The Hurri also has the key advantage of being very fast and easy to repair. The Hurricanes greatness comes from being the right aircraft in the right place at the right time.

Slaterat

 

[buffnut453]

Not so sure I agree with you Slaterat. If we assume that Hawker still had the manufacturing capacity that was present for the Hurricane, then there was certainly scope to re-jig production to support the Spitfire - as has been noted, Castle Bromwich stood up pretty quickly. It wasn't just Hawker either, it was the entire Hawker Siddeley group - Gloster was pumping out Hurricanes at a prodigious rate so any vacuum owing to there being no Hurricane could have been filled with Spits. It could also be argued, since the Spit shot down more aircraft per airframe during the BoB, that fewer Spits would have done the job just as well as a greater number of Hurricanes. This is all conjecture, though.

Personally, I'm a huge Hurricane fan - always have been ever since first reading about "Killer Kane" in "Warlord" comic when I was a kid. Despite my counter above, I entirely agree with your final statement - the Hurri was the right aircraft in the right numbers at the right time.

 

[Readie]

The Hurri also has the key advantage of being very fast and easy to repair. The Hurricanes greatness comes from being the right aircraft in the right place at the right time.
Slaterat

Quite agree Slaterat.
The British have often made it by the skin of our teeth and we owe a great deal to the Hurricane.
John

 

[tomo pauk]

Not so sure I agree with you Slaterat. If we assume that Hawker still had the manufacturing capacity that was present for the Hurricane, then there was certainly scope to re-jig production to support the Spitfire - as has been noted, Castle Bromwich stood up pretty quickly. It wasn't just Hawker either, it was the entire Hawker Siddeley group - Gloster was pumping out Hurricanes at a prodigious rate so any vacuum owing to there being no Hurricane could have been filled with Spits. It could also be argued, since the Spit shot down more aircraft per airframe during the BoB, that fewer Spits would have done the job just as well as a greater number of Hurricanes. This is all conjecture, though.

Personally, I'm a huge Hurricane fan - always have been ever since first reading about "Killer Kane" in "Warlord" comic when I was a kid. Despite my counter above, I entirely agree with your final statement - the Hurri was the right aircraft in the right numbers at the right time.

Well said, especially the last sentence. Ditto for slaterat's words.

 

[DVH]

well if the authorities had listened to Frank Whittle, they could have been flying Meteors in 1940, or had jet engined spitfires! Oops, I just wet myself.

 

[jipi]

Dewoitine D-520

Good choice !
Great airplane with better perfs than the Hurricane's, and all brand new.
Most of them have been sent to Oran in Algeria.

By september, De Gaulle succeeded in making some of the French empire's territories join the allies.
Unfortunately, Algeria has not been one of them.
The Dewoitines would then have played a role in the bob.

 

[rmark]

With no Hurricane, the only practial choice is a Merlin powered Gladiator.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Miles M.20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is interesting too. 'The quick build' and presumably disposable fighter....
Shows the way some designers were thinking just after the BoB
John

This IS an interesting concept. It emphasizes logistical capabilities at apparently a relatively small sacrifice of performance. As much as I find its characteristic blunt nose unattractive, the aircraft does nevertheless possess some elegant lines.

 

[fastmongrel]

With no Hurricane, the only practial choice is a Merlin powered Gladiator.

I have been trying for years to tell these fellas that the only way forward is two wings but they wont listen.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Good choice !
Great airplane with better perfs than the Hurricane's, and all brand new.
Most of them have been sent to Oran in Algeria.

By september, De Gaulle succeeded in making some of the French empire's territories join the allies.
Unfortunately, Algeria has not been one of them.

The Dewoitines would then have played a role in the bob.

The way I have interpreted the thread is that any fighter aircraft replacing the hurricane would have had to have been in service by July 1940 and with roughly 350 in the inventory. Great Britain would also probably need to replace the 600 additional Hurricanes lost during the battle. I think these two numbers restrict consideration to a very few aircraft or to a hypothetical aircraft that would have been produced in the Hurricane's absence. It sounds like BP had production issues (perhaps somewhat similar to those of the Brewster company in the USA) and Martin baker's MB-2 was a first fighter aircraft for a company not noted for production volume, Vickers Venom might be a candidate given its history and prior business, but to me it seems the Gloster F5/34 holds most of the hypothetical fighter cards. Personally, I think the Luftwaffe would have loved to fight an RAF equipped with biplanes even ones as great as the Gladiator.

 

[Shortround6]

Actually just about 2000 Hurricanes had been built by the start of the BoB, which really limits things. For numbers in service you need to deduct the ones lost in France, foriegn sales, operational losses and the like. What ever replaces it needs to amiable at the rate of 6-8 a day in England, not on a dock in America.

 

[buffnut453]

With no Hurricane, the only practial choice is a Merlin powered Gladiator.

Is that a case of more haste less speed?

 

[pbfoot]

Good choice !
Great airplane with better perfs than the Hurricane's, and all brand new.
Most of them have been sent to Oran in Algeria.

By september, De Gaulle succeeded in making some of the French empire's territories join the allies.
Unfortunately, Algeria has not been one of them.
The Dewoitines would then have played a role in the bob.

I think this would be the way to go or the Bloch with its 2 20mm

 

[rank amateur]

With no Hurricane, the only practial choice is a Merlin powered Gladiator.

As much as Il like the concept, I still think this would be a perfect waiste of a good engine

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Actually just about 2000 Hurricanes had been built by the start of the BoB, which really limits things. For numbers in service you need to deduct the ones lost in France, foriegn sales, operational losses and the like. What ever replaces it needs to amiable at the rate of 6-8 a day in England, not on a dock in America.

Interesting web site:

The Hawker Hurricane and others - Better than the Spitfire?

Based on the information on the above website, as I understand it, only 350 Hurricanes were operational at start of the battle athough there were evidently indeed many more in reserve as it looks like ~200 hurricanes were lost in France to all causes. Further, this number represented about 25% of the entire fleet that existed in the Spring. Thus at the start of the battle of France, there seem to have been about 800 total, with all losses being replaced by start of the BoB. This same website states that July 17 numbers include a TOTAL of 675 hurricanes!

Shortround, I am not sure of the source of the difference in the numbers you quote, but this website would seem to imply a total constructed number of about 1,000 Hurricanes, unless I am missing something. Oh, there was apparently some foreign manufacture occurring, Could that account for the difference?

 

[vikingBerserker]

I'd have to go with the Miles M.20

From what I've read it was not that bad of a plane.

 

[Siegfried]

".... The P-51 was a british spec airplane so buying an American fighter was certainly planned...."

Was it ...? Or did the British purchasing commission in the US start off trying to buy North American Aviation-built P-40's but were convinced by NAA execs that they could build a better airframe fast, and they did. My point is not to dispute Britain's perceived need to buy in the USA .... buy what, though?

MM

Was it really a British spec or a North Amrican design with the specification retrospectively written around a private initiative? The specification would seem to be for contractual purposes.

 

[Siegfried]

Interesting web site:

The Hawker Hurricane and others - Better than the Spitfire?

Based on the information on the above website, as I understand it, only 350 Hurricanes were operational at start of the battle athough there were evidently indeed many more in reserve as it looks like ~200 hurricanes were lost in France to all causes. Further, this number represented about 25% of the entire fleet that existed in the Spring. Thus at the start of the battle of France, there seem to have been about 800 total, with all losses being replaced by start of the BoB. This same website states that July 17 numbers include a TOTAL of 675 hurricanes!

Shortround, I am not sure of the source of the difference in the numbers you quote, but this website would seem to imply a total constructed number of about 1,000 Hurricanes, unless I am missing something. Oh, there was apparently some foreign manufacture occurring, Could that account for the difference?

If the Sidney Cam developed Hurricane had not existed then any number of British firms would have produced an equal.
Gloster
Blackburn
Bristol
Fairy
Westland

One foreign candidate was the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 which if the 860hp HZ 12 enginewas uograded (the the HS 12Z or Merlin) would have been better than the Hurricane. The Swiss turned it into a 420mph machine.

 

[Hop]

Hurricane orders and deliveries:

Block 1: 600 aircraft, delivered December 1937 - October 1939

Block 2: 300 aircraft, delivered September 1939 - May 1940

Block 1G: 500 aircraft, delivered November 1939 - April 1940 (built by Gloster)

Block 3: 544 aircraft, delivered February - July 1940

Block 1C: 40 aircraft, delivered February - August 1940 (built in Canada)

Block 2G: 100 aircraft, delivered May - July 1940 (built by Gloster)

(figures from K5083 - Aircraft Production Summary )

That's just over 2,000 Hurricanes delivered by the 20th July. Any replacement for the Hurricane needs to be available in similar numbers.

 

[Juha]

...One foreign candidate was the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 which if the 860hp HZ 12 enginewas uograded (the the HS 12Z or Merlin) would have been better than the Hurricane. The Swiss turned it into a 420mph machine.

Now the 420 mph machine was D-3803, one prototype flew in May 47, a bit late for the BoB, there was some development potential in MS 406/410 as the Finnish Mörkö-Morane showed but the Swiss D-3802 and -3803 were based on MS 450 proto, which flew first time in 39, of course 450 itself was a development of 406-

Juha