Bellagambi's Bird Hase 1/32

[al49]

Hi,
very nice work on detailing the cockpit, but what about the camouflage?
Did you decided it yet?
You do not mention the Bf 109 version you are going to build.
Assuming is going to be a G-14, you will find a nice picture plus a color plate on page 163 of this book:

Or you can find just the color plate on page 58 of this book:

Or you can find picture on page 172 and plate on page 184 of this book:

If you hold one or all of them, it's fine, otherwise send me a PM with a fax number and will send you a scan of the page.
I assume you know everything already but, in case, please consider that Bellagambi's G-14, as a product of the Erla factory, was probably painted in RLM 75/83/76 scheme with rudder in 81/83.
Nnational insignias are the standard ones for A.N.R. (Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana) aircraft, i.e. four Italian flags on the fuselage and fin plus two German black crosses.
On wing undersurface, the original German crosses were retained to ease identification from ground.
No information is available on upper wing marking but, generally speaking, ANR aircraft had two square fasces markings.
It's also worth noting that by this time in the war metal wing under surfaces were left unpainted in order to save paint and labour.
Hope the above is of some help.
BR
Alberto

 

[Airframes]

Great info there Alberto, especially about the unpainted wing undersurfaces.

 

[Wayne Little]

Kevin is doing Yellow 1.....weight of evidence suggests the forementioned aircraft is the Erla mount W.Nr.464380 in the colours mentioned....have sent Kevin a PDF with some detail on this and Bellagambi's other Yellow 1 W.Nr 785749, which is more likely in 81/82 colours.

785749 is on the decal sheet but 464380 can be made up from the available W.Nr's....

464380 does not have baremetal lower surfaces, it was produced before this practice came into play.

 

[al49]

Kevin is doing Yellow 1.....weight of evidence suggests the forementioned aircraft is the Erla mount W.Nr.464380 in the colours mentioned....have sent Kevin a PDF with some detail on this and Bellagambi's other Yellow 1 W.Nr 785749, which is more likely in 81/82 colours.

785749 is on the decal sheet but 464380 can be made up from the available W.Nr's....

464380 does not have baremetal lower surfaces, it was produced before this practice came into play.

Hi Wayne,
we are probably using same sources.
In any case, this is the page of D'Amico Valentini book on camouflages I'm referring to.

There is also this skin, done by Abraxa for IL2, that can be of reference for uppersurfaces.

About wing undersurfaces you are probably right, but if I find anything different I will let you know.
Happy New Year
Alberto

 

[Wayne Little]

Hi Wayne,
we are probably using same sources.

About wing undersurfaces you are probably right, but if I find anything different I will let you know.
Happy New Year
Alberto

We are using the same sources, the first 2 anyway, also referencing other luftwaffe books regarding 464XXX and 785XXX series aircraft!

I will be doing at some stage, one or both of Bellagambi's Yellow 1's, a Drago Black 7 and probably Miani's Chevron Triangle.....at least one will be 1/32 scale the others 1/48....look forward to any additional info, sur Kevin is too!

Happy New year to you also Alberto!

 

[al49]

We are using the same sources, the first 2 anyway, also referencing other luftwaffe books regarding 464XXX and 785XXX series aircraft!

Oh yes, I'm new on this forum and I didn't realised that the post on D'Amico's ANR camouflage book was yours.

Based on further research done by Ferdinando D'Amico and posted on 150GCT forum on 06/26/2005 it has been found the following:
- 785xxx series concerned G-14/AS, while 464xxx concerned G-14 manufactured by Erla, often with a larger oil tank used on G-10
- Notes left by Capt.Bellagambi mention two "Yellow 1" aircrafts used inl February 1945: the first wasl W.Nr. 464380, later replaced by W.Nr. 785749
- Consequently it now confirmed that aircraft shown in the picture is W.Nr. 464380.
I will check with him if there have been further developments and let you know.
Alberto

Further information:
Because I don't like to mislead people and also because soon or later I will probably do the same model, I opened a threat on 150GCT forum to understand if after 2005 some other information have been found and I got an answer from Ferdinando D'Amico confirming the following:
1) It is still not confirmed if there was any sign on wing upper surfaces of the aircraft pictured above. What is known is that some of the BF 109 based in Osoppo (Udine) in early 1945 had ANR fasci other had nothing.
2) Wing undersurfaces of the above aircraft were painted, very likely in RLM 76. Still referring to the above photo, this should be confirmed by the fact that no tonality differences are evident between wingtips and ailerons and the remaining part of the wing.
Additionally, only some G-10, G-10 Erla and K-14 have been effectively delivered to ANR with unpainted wings.

BR
Alberto

So now every thing should be clear

 

[al49]

1) It is still not confirmed if there was any sign on wing upper surfaces of the aircraft pictured above. What is known is that some of the BF 109 based in Osoppo (Udine) in early 1945 had ANR fasci other had nothing.

One bit more to make the matter even more messy!
Still on the book "Camouflage and Marking of ANR", on page 162 there is picture 283 showing "Yellow 3" and as you can see here

on this aeroplane wing upper surface there are simplified white Balkenkreuze.
So there were three possibilities:
1) ANR fasci
2) Balkenkreuze
3) Nothing
Alberto

 

[javlin]

Thank Al for the input I will be going to both you and Wayne as it gets closer to the painting point>Right now the fuse is buttoned up and sanded and starting some of the other assemblies nothing really great to post we all haven't seen yet.Cheers Kevin

Al or Wayne do we know by these books about how many kills or missions performed in WK#749?While I would believe upon delivery no ANR's on the upper surfaces could it occur if left in the SQ for a longer period of time?

 

[B-17engineer]

Again, how'd I miss this? Great work!

 

[al49]

[QUOTE
Al or Wayne do we know by these books about how many kills or missions performed in WK#749?While I would believe upon delivery no ANR's on the upper surfaces could it occur if left in the SQ for a longer period of time?[/QUOTE]
Hi Kevin,
unfortunately it's very difficult to find out the info you are looking for.
About the kills the figure changes from 12 to 14 according to different sources.
There are many reasons for this uncertainty, to my knowledge the main ones are two:
- In the early days of WW2 the Italian approach was to give the kill to the whole Squadriglia not to the individual pilot.
- After the September 8 1943 armistice between Kingdom Of Italy and the Allies, in Rome it was the big mess and many documents went lost or stolen.
Anyway I will investigate more, specially about mission performed and if I discover something more I will let you know.
Alberto

To make the situation even more confused, according to Ferdinando D'Amico post dated May 25, 2008 only 11 kills are officially attributed to Mario Bellagambi, one in North Africa while flying on a Macchi C 200 under Regia Aeronautica flag and 10 on Bf 109 under ANR flag.
As a matter of interest, as we are speaking of human beings, I like to enclose a picture from D'Amico collection, showing Mario Bellagambi in 1986 at a veteran meeting

Mario is the one on the left. The other guy is Ugo Drago an other famous Italian pilot who survived the war.
One of his aircrafts was "Black 7" a G-10 presented on page 58 of Aeronautica Italiana Caccia Assalto, vol. 3.

BR
Alberto

 

[Wayne Little]

Thank Al for the input I will be going to both you and Wayne as it gets closer to the painting point>Right now the fuse is buttoned up and sanded and starting some of the other assemblies nothing really great to post we all haven't seen yet.Cheers Kevin

Al or Wayne do we know by these books about how many kills or missions performed in WK#749?While I would believe upon delivery no ANR's on the upper surfaces could it occur if left in the SQ for a longer period of time?

None of the books I have, same as Alberto, indicate kills or missions, they primarilly relate to Camo and Markings.

From these sources it is a coin toss as to what upper wing markings were carried...in short no photo's!

464380 was around long enough to have had the Italian markings added I think!?
785749 on the other hand may well have retained the German crosses...just guess though!

The other issue....if 464380 had the black cross then 785749 must have had a white fuselage cross, camo and markings need to be best guess based on other aircraft from this series???

Shaking your head yet Kevin....

 

[Lucky13]

Fantastic stuff Alberto!

 

[javlin]

Thats all good info there Al and Wayne and much apprecisted from this end.I am leening towards the 464380 Wk # maybe with its colorful scheme.Got some work on the wings tonight not much more before some paint.I am looking at the Schillings Yellow 1 I never finished fior the first Gruppe build hmmmnnn.Cheers Kevin

 

[Wayne Little]

If you're going with 464380 that makes the camo much easier as 75/83 over 76 is pretty much the accepted colours for this series....

 

[javlin]

If you're going with 464380 that makes the camo much easier as 75/83 over 76 is pretty much the accepted colours for this series....

Ya Wayne the 81/83 on the tail intrigues me and the super tall tail wheel??Why do you think that came about?something with the terrain or something?Cheers Kevin

 

[al49]

Ya Wayne the 81/83 on the tail intrigues me and the super tall tail wheel??Why do you think that came about?something with the terrain or something?Cheers Kevin

Well, as far as I know the different colour on the rudder can be explained in two different ways: just a field replacement or a piece coming from a subcontractor who already started using the "defensive scheme" adopted in late 1943, while Erla factory was still using colours specified previously. This was possible because, when the new the was introduced, RLM gave the permission to keep using existing stock of paints.
On some pictures I've seen that in some instances airfield people tried to blend the two different schemes in order to make the difference less noticeable.
The tall tail wheel is certainly linked to the fact that most of the surface of airfields used these days were very rough.
BR
Alberto

 

[Airframes]

I might be wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the tail wheel height was also to improve angle of attack at take off, to help in short, or rough field conditions. Make sense, if the airflow can get to the tailplane easier/quicker, then the tail comes up earlier, and lift-off is sooner - given take-off speed can be achieved of course.

 

[javlin]

I might be wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the tail wheel height was also to improve angle of attack at take off, to help in short, or rough field conditions. Make sense, if the airflow can get to the tailplane easier/quicker, then the tail comes up earlier, and lift-off is sooner - given take-off speed can be achieved of course.

That kinda makes sense their Terry.Kevin

 

[Wayne Little]

Kevin, Alberto and Terry have nailed it!

It is gonna be a definite build for me sometime in the future, being one of only 2 examples of a 109 with the black fuselage cross!

 

[javlin]

I have got my first coat of 76 on the plane and it needs to dry overnight then preshade w/66 then 76 again.Now Wayne and Al those books ya'll have mention something about a certain pic and a belief that in the pic the tail was hit with 76 on top of the rudder.When I look at that pic you sent me Wayne I be damn if I can tell for I really like the rudder in the profile you sent me,whats ya'lls thought on that?If you can Wayne post that profile so others may see and the pic if we are in no infringement rights.Cheers Kevin

Al already posted on page 2.