Best Aircraft in many different roles

[wmaxt]

Further notes reveal that Hap Arnold was so taken with the Mosquito, he had the traffic stopped in Washington D.C. so Geoffrey De Havilland could put on a half-hour display to impress Arnolds High Command friends, when he had instigated this tour after first seeing it demo-ed in UK...He tried hard to bargain for some, even offering P-51's as a swap...He was turned-down on that, but the UK released Canadian-produced B-VII's [5] and 35 B.XX's, which were later succeeded by over a 100 PR XVI's and some T.III's for training...

Also, the President's son, Col. Elliot Rooseveldt commanded a USAAF unit in N.Africa equipped with P-38 F-4's, but had tried-out a B.IV Mossie, finding it was faster and had greater range....another one who got 'hooked' on them, and pushed for them for US service....

The 8th AF 25th BG, 653 654 BS's were the main users of them in the ETO...they returned them at War's end...[how nice...they scrapped their P-38's though...]

The Mossie was also the first to PR Berlin, 8th March 1943....

The Mossie also PR'd Peenemunde, 2nd June 1943, first discovering the V2 and on 28th Nov. that year, spotted the first VI launch-site in France, Mosquitos eventually accounting for 600 of the incoming VI's....

They not only shot the crap out of shipping, they were also used for anti- U-Boat work, cannons, rockets AND depth-charges being used....

No way was the P-38 comparable to the Mosquitos' vast range of services, even the un-armed PR's could accommodate attacks by Fw-190's AND 262's, they evolved their own 'corkscrew' manuoevre if they were bounced...Fw's didn't handle the rare air at altitude, and had to get up a l'il dive to gain on the Mossie...that was probably why they developed the Ta-152 series, especially the high-altitude model....

The Mosquito was the biggest pain in Germany's ass of any particular Allied aircraft....that was a stated fact....right from their debut.....

The P-51 was the greatest US fighter of the War, equipping all but one FG [P-47's of 56th FG was the only other...] by War's end in the ETO....
Basically, the P-38 was the US's first long-range escort fighter, but it was really a 'stop-gap' fighter that was replaced by P-47'S 51's.....

The DH Mosquito was THE BEST ALL-ROUNDER OF WWII......period

I never said the Mossie was anything other than a fine aircraft, It's primary roll is as a bomber where it excelled. The P-38 was a fighter where it excelled. Better is relative. The P-38 was capable of a wider range of rolls with less aircraft modification than the Mossie. Your argument above is primarily shipping and PR work, both things the P-38 excelled at especialy the planes based on H or later versions.

The early P-38s in Africa didn't use external tanks often, once the newer models G/H for instance they flew alongside the Mossies in every respect.

What everybody is missing here is that the two planes complimented each other doing a range of jobs other planes simply could not do.

Everything the Mossie did the P-38 did or could do had the need existed (mines, patrol) and a couple more, like air ambulance. The P-38s shot a lot of shipping up, but as a fighter it's preasence as escort or attack was in more demand than patrol work. something the Mossie did because it was available for those tasks.

When Dolittle decided to go to P-51s, there were several reasons:
Cost incl maintenance the early P-38s had problems.
Quantity I think there were 7 P-38 F/Gs in the ETO and the P-51s were flooding in at that time - the P-38s were still single sourced, and still much in demand everywhere else.
Political The P-38s were available when the bombers were being slaghtered. It would have been political suicide to admit it could do the job.

It was only stop gap in that there were never the numbers to do everything that was asked of it.

At wars end 70% of the aircraft the US had were destroyed, the last of the P-38s were destroyed in early 1950 (witnessed by Martin Caiden) again a cost/supply issue.

The Mustang was an excelent aircraft but the P-38L was better in every respect except visibility and the P-51B/D carried a greater percentage of it's fuel inboard than the P-38L. and of course cost/maintenance. Cost is valid when your talking 30,000 planes and the need to have the very best is passed.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion.

 

[plan_D]

The Mosquito was used as air ambulance too.

 

[wmaxt]

The Mosquito was used as air ambulance too.

I should have assumed that.

If those guys could stuff an extra pilot in a P-51 and P-38 cocpits and fly them home I'm sure a way can be found to carry a wounded man.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

not just one, some mossies could carry 6 men- and get this, they were actually in the plane, not freezing their nuts off in stupid pods, what a novel concept...............

AND the mossie was used in the civilian world, was the P-38??

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

After a very brief read up about the P-38, i'll have to agree with the Britsh opinion that was summed up at the time, that being "not likely to be of any use for anything except convoy escort and against the occasional unescorted bomber"

Sorry, the P-38 just did not cut the mustard in Europe. It had a inherent design weakness called aerodynamic compressibilty. How the hell could it do P/R work when the cockpit heating was nonexistent! The engines were a problem too.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

ah another fighter for the mossie's side, good man, you realise however that now you've pleadged aligence to the mossie, you can't change your mind??

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

I pledge to all things British ol' boy, don't you worry about that...God save The Queen \/ \/

 

[Nonskimmer]

"...she ain't no human being!..."

Oh sorry, I thought we were doing the Sex Pistols.

 

[Lightning Guy]

I can't help but wonder how many of these people criticizing the P-38 have ever read a single book on the plane?

Anyway, on the matter of cockpit heat, the P-38J an following rectified that problem. The vast majority of PR models (somewhere around 1,000) where developed from J and L models. Cockpit heating was simply not a problem.

The combat record of the P-38 over Europe has already been discussed repeatidly. Badly outnumbered, hindered by poor tactics, facing the cream of the Luftwaffe, and hamstrung by crap British fuels, the P-38 still managed to give better than it took over Europe. It dominated its opponents every where else. At the most critical point in the bomber offensive, the P-38 was the only aircraft capable of providing escort over the targets. P-47s could barely reach Germany and Spits couldn't even go that far.

Furthermore, the Mossie was TOTALLY outclassed by the P-38 as a fighter. The Mossie NEVER served as a pure fighter. That was one of the major roles of aircraft during WWII and the Mossie never even served it in.

 

[wmaxt]

After a very brief read up about the P-38, i'll have to agree with the Britsh opinion that was summed up at the time, that being "not likely to be of any use for anything except convoy escort and against the occasional unescorted bomber"

Sorry, the P-38 just did not cut the mustard in Europe. It had a inherent design weakness called aerodynamic compressibilty. How the hell could it do P/R work when the cockpit heating was nonexistent! The engines were a problem too.

Those problems were fixed by the later J models and the L model was truly excelent. These two models made up more than half the P-38s produced also these problems affected only the early P-38s at high altitude in the ETO.

A Better Ballanced view of the P-38 can be found at the following:

"Planes and Pilots of WWII" web site articals "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel"
"The P38(C.C.Jordon)" web page
"P-38 lightning online" web page

There are asveral books out there that offer a balanced view and both the good and the bad.

The early P-38s had problems partly because it was the first in many cases (Compressability for instance). When it came to escorts these problems were exaserbated by a job in an environment it was not designed for, and the political sin of bieng there when it was needed but not wanted AND it still did the job with a 4 German /1 P-38 kill ratio (P38(C.C.Jordon) web site) and a drop in bomber loss rate from 9/10% to 4/5% the P-51s never bettered.

If you want to research great just expand your search to get the whole story. The P-38 has been both trashed and exalted in the past 60 years. I have found " Official top" speed cited at 365 to 414, The slowest was actuly 395 The "castrated Lightnings", to 443 of the L model. Do your research I promise you'll be amazed esp. if you get the book on the P-38 by 'Warren Bodie' who not only researched the plane the usual way had access to Lockheeds private archives.

 

[wmaxt]

I can't help but wonder how many of these people criticizing the P-38 have ever read a single book on the plane?

Anyway, on the matter of cockpit heat, the P-38J an following rectified that problem. The vast majority of PR models (somewhere around 1,000) where developed from J and L models. Cockpit heating was simply not a problem.

The combat record of the P-38 over Europe has already been discussed repeatidly. Badly outnumbered, hindered by poor tactics, facing the cream of the Luftwaffe, and hamstrung by crap British fuels, the P-38 still managed to give better than it took over Europe. It dominated its opponents every where else. At the most critical point in the bomber offensive, the P-38 was the only aircraft capable of providing escort over the targets. P-47s could barely reach Germany and Spits couldn't even go that far.

Furthermore, the Mossie was TOTALLY outclassed by the P-38 as a fighter. The Mossie NEVER served as a pure fighter. That was one of the major roles of aircraft during WWII and the Mossie never even served it in.

Right on!

The other thing is the inaccurate information out there from the artificialy skewed performance figures and AAF scores to concetrating on the few (approx. 2,500 out of 10,000) early model planes with development problems (problems ALL the other planes had, they just didn't have to do them publicaly in combat) in the ETO.

 

[Gemhorse]

Ultimately, I do agree with wmaxt's statement about both aircraft working together at all the tasks that needed to be done, and I also agree with the assertion that both aircraft were indeed very good at their respective duties.....

In this context, it is rather silly to claim one being better than the other, partly because, over these two aircraft in particular, the patriotic fervour of members to these forums is naturally going to over-ride any factual or fictitious technical data representative of the aircraft....and also the historical accounts of their respective 'Tours of Duty', both herald brave and notable actions of these two total diverse aircraft that held the distinction of both being active on similar duties in the various theatres....

There is no way I can concede to the Lightning, anymore than those 'Lightning-Lovers' will to us 'Mad on Mossies' Group......eh ???

Those of UK Commonwealth heritage whose lives have been uplifted by the Historical accounts of the Mosquito, some whose past family members and friends etc. who flew and fought in them, cannot negate the awesome Duty they did and the symbolism the DH Mosquito represents to them...

Alternately, those of our Friend and Ally, the USA, cannot really be expected also, to see the wooden Mosquito as being in any possible way superior to the all metal Lightning, that their forebears fought with Honour in.....

And I for one don't really get any pleasure finding myself 'het-up' and making disparaging remarks about the Lightning, because I have always liked it as an aircraft - Indeed, it is as distinctly unique in it's construction and characteristics, as the the DH Mosquito.....

While LG feels the Lightning was a 'pure' fighter, I feel the Mosquito was a pure fighter/bomber, and history recalls they both gave as good as they got, if not more.....

Where I openly feel the Mossie deserves this Title of 'Best All-rounder', we may find a mutual acceptance that the Lightning was the 'Best All-rounder US Aircraft', and the DH Mosquito the 'Best All-rounder British Aircraft', because gentlemen, there sure as hell wasn't any other Country that had anything as good as these two aircraft, and we know some tried to 'copy' their designs to combat their undisputed successfulness..........

Commez-vous, s'il vous plait...?? [Your comments, if you please?]

 

[evangilder]

Well stated and goo balance Gemhorse. I totally agree that both aircraft were great and did way more than they were originally designed for. The rose to the challenges and were both airplanes that their respective countries can be proud of. I don't think one side is going to change the other's mind as to which they feel is the best. I personally like them both equally and find the records of both aircraft impressive.

 

[Lightning Guy]

I will certainly agree with what Gemhorse as stated. The Mossie was well ahead of its time in many ways, but so was the P-38.

As far as the P-38 is concerned, it is interesting to note that many other countries tried to develop twin-engined fighters before and during the war. Of all the types that saw service (Whirlwind, Bf-110, Me-210/410, Ki-45) none even came close to the abilities of the P-38.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the whirlwind could hit 472mph, i fail to see how that doesn't compare to the P-38??

so anyway here's wmaxt's list of the P-38's roles

Air ambulance
Fighter
Level bombing
Skip bombing
Dive bonbing
Recon
Intercepter
Escort
Tank buster
Night fighter
Provisions/testing was made for these rolls
Skis for snow
Two torpedos
Floats

here a list of some of the roles the mossie could operate in.........

Air Ambulance
Day fighter
Day fighter-bomber
Day intruder
Day bomber (which includes dive bombing, skip bombing and level bombing)
Fighter reconnaissance
Photo Recon
Interceptor
Long range escort
Tank buster
Night fighter
Night intruder
Night bomber
Night fighter-bomber
Target marker
Target tug
Anti-shipping
Anti-Tirpitzing (which is different to anti-shipping)
Convoy protection
Dual seat/control trainer
Mine layer
Anti-submarine patrol
High altitude bomber
High altitude fighter
High altitude photo recon
Navy target tug
Torpedo fighter
Carrier born torpedo fighter
Carrier born recon fighter
Carrier born strike fighter
High speed mail plane
Long range civil transport with provision for sleeping
Radio jamming and countermeasures

 

[Yeomanz]

what the hell is 'intruding' ]

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

aircraft, often no mote than two at a time, would fly in low and fast over heavily occupied teritiory, find a target, attack, and get out before you have the chance to get jumped, you're not given a particular target.............

 

[wmaxt]

the whirlwind could hit 472mph, i fail to see how that doesn't compare to the P-38??


here a list of some of the roles the mossie could operate in.........

Air Ambulance
Day fighter
Day fighter-bomber
Day intruder
Day bomber (which includes dive bombing, skip bombing and level bombing)
Fighter reconnaissance
Photo Recon
Interceptor
Long range escort
Tank buster
Night fighter
Night intruder
Night bomber
Night fighter-bomber
Target marker
Target tug
Anti-shipping
Anti-Tirpitzing (which is different to anti-shipping)
Convoy protection
Dual seat/control trainer
Mine layer
Anti-submarine patrol
High altitude bomber
High altitude fighter
High altitude photo recon
Navy target tug
Torpedo fighter
Carrier born torpedo fighter
Carrier born recon fighter
Carrier born strike fighter
High speed mail plane
Long range civil transport with provision for sleeping
Radio jamming and countermeasures

Many of these missions the P-38 did ie target marking (I just found that reference), or could have done if asked ie mine laying, carrier operations
and some it could not ie ferry 6 people. There were also things the Mossie couldn't do ie escort.

The oil fields/refineries at Ploesti were bombed many times and ways the most effective raids were by P-38s.

What does that prove - nothing Mossies/P-38s are an apples/oranges comparison.

There was a desparate need for long range fighters both escort and intercept/interdicting, attack, and on occasion self defending bomber. There were never enough P-38s to satisfy demand anywhere - even in the ETO after the P-38s were primarily attack aircraft. In it's main role as a fighter, it fought the best, at the worst odds and perservered, always giving better than it took.

The Mossie wasn't in desperate need anywhere spacificly allowing it to be built in different versions for different roles, in many of which it excelled. In it's main role, attack bomber, it had few peers.

Comparing them isn't realistic.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it's best we leave the What ifs" out of this because we'll never know if it could, it's just more realistic this way.............

There were also things the Mossie couldn't do ie escort.

so it was some other plane flying escort for the night bombers trying to keep the night fighters of their backs???

but i think you're starting to agree the mossie could operate in more roles??

 

[wmaxt]

it's best we leave the What ifs" out of this because we'll never know if it could, it's just more realistic this way.............

There were also things the Mossie couldn't do ie escort.

so it was some other plane flying escort for the night bombers trying to keep the night fighters of their backs???

but i think you're starting to agree the mossie could operate in more roles??

No, I still mantain that each indvidual P-38 could do more jobs. Had it been desired the P-38 had the flexability to do other things. There is even a picture of a P-38 on skis in one of the threads here.

As a flexable bomber the Mossie is probably best. As a flexable fighter the P-38 is the best.