Best Aircraft in many different roles

[cheddar cheese]

Or maybe because so many crashed theres no original ones left so they need to build more?

 

[Gemhorse]

Now you're just being nasty and petty........

 

[wmaxt]

SSSSS, soon as I go off and do something, they're back bagging the Mosquito !!....Lanc was merely pointing-out they tried it with a turret, which is something they DIDN'T do with a P-38.....Anybody would think you could go wing-walking on a Lightning while it did barrel-rolls.....

Yeah, it was a great fighter.....but The Mosquito was a LEGEND. [full-stop.]

It did carry a torpedo [18 in] plus 2x 50 gal drop tanks, but it seemed pointless when you've rockets....I don't recall any P-38's working off Aircraft Carriers, like the Sea Mossie [with folding-wings....]

Remember, they tossed the P-38 at War's end....period

It's service was replaced by Merlin-engined P-51's in the PTO, towards the War's end....it was P-51's that escorted the B-29's over Japan....

The P-38's NF duties were late in the War, [boy, it surely didn't enhance it's looks, that big knob sticking-out...] and that was only because the P-61 was too slow...

Of the 7,781 Mosquitos built, they sure spread them around, they were in Russia at one stage, somewhere a P-38 didn't go....

First operational in Sept. 1941, last RAF operation in Malaya 1955....

ALL those variants, off three basic models......

RAF 23 Sqn. took part in the defence of Malta and in operations over Italy

They were the first twin-engined Allied aircraft to bomb Berlin, which did more to piss-off the Germans than a whole Group of P-38's.....

They were also a diplomatic passenger mail carrier doing the Leuchars-Stockholm run, bringing-back much needed ball-bearings [as already mentioned], but they did it in daylight, UN-armed....Naturally the Germans were incensed at that and set Fw-190's onto them, so they went at night after that.....Pretty extraordinary courage in such hazardous conditions....
- But the Bomber PR variants did that every day night.....Afterall, that's how the 8th AF [and Bomber Command] got it's pre-raid weather-forecasts, and after-raid photos,[along with the PR Spits reports.....] - The US had over 40 F-8's......In fact, they probably flew much higher than any P-38's, John De Havilland first flew it to 43,500 ft in late 1942, but successive variants went higher....

They set Atlantic-crossing records during the War and after, in late 1943 they went to the Far East and during 1944 made an aerial survey of the whole of Burma and photographed all the enemy seaports in Malaya and the Dutch East Indies....

- Postwar, they won Air races in the US [ex-US F8 Mossies], Survey work for oil in Tripoli, performed high-altitude photographic missions in Canada, USA, [GOT THAT !!!!], Mexico, Columbia, Brit. Guiana, the Dominican Republic and Kenya...and an Aussie variant was used to Aerial Survey the whole of Australia, completing that during 1953....

They still have the prototype model, at Salisbury Hall.....did they disc the original P-38 too ???

Not to mention the postwar service Mosquitos performed for 11 different country's, beyond RAF's last op in 1955....

COME ON GUYS, they are THE ''LEGEND''..... a l'il old idea in the early stages of a formidable World War, to use non-essential war craftsmen and materials to make a wooden aeroplane, that spawned a bloody LEGEND...
...and then they built a single-seat version that was virtually the fastest piston-engined aircraft in the World, at the time, and that went on to do good service too, in another l'il War...... they called that the Hornet, but I notice the USA have stuck that name to one of theirs now......you may want to call the next 'hot-rod' fighter you build ... the MOSQUITO !!!!

Sorry Gem, The P-38 never NEEDED a turret.
The Mossie did have carrier possibilities but was impractial - the P-38 had a variant designed for carrier use though it never got off the dwg board. The navy wasn't interested even if it was converted to radials.

The P-38 were the first (only?) fighter to fly the Atlantic operationaly. In the ETO and MTO the P-38's were normaly flown to their area of responsibility rather than being shipped.

The P-38 didn't go to russia because EVERYBODY them and they just werent enough. They did serve in the ETO, PTO, CBI Africa and the Aleutions.

The P-38 caused Galland to bring a number of his "Wild Boar" squadrons to daylite operations to combat the escorts when long range escorts were finaly being used.

The P-51 escorts were planes surplussed from the ETO and a political move.

The proto type P-38 crashed at the end of a trans continental record flight it had less than 15 total hours on the experimental FIRST aircraft of its kind. It should have stayed in sight of its home field until it was understood. It's normaly felt that this iresponsible political act held developement up 2 years.

The P-38s were scrapped because they were more expensive to opperate a political decision.

Lastly the P-38 were available for escort before the AAF was ready to admit it was needed and was officialy degraded as an excuse for not utilizing it better.

The Mossie was a great plane and contributed a lot but it was not more versatile than a P-38

 

[cheddar cheese]

Now you're just being nasty and petty........

I know, it was a joke. Im not denying the greatness of the Mossie...

 

[wmaxt]

.....Anybody would think you could go wing-walking on a Lightning while it did barrel-rolls.....

Only when rolling to the right so the wing walker wouldn't get airsick!

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

"The best aircraft in many different roles" How you boys can argue about this i'll never know...
The "Timber Terror" was the most versatile of course.

Photo-recon, bomber, fighter-bomber, night-fighter, intruder, trainer, pathfinder, target marking, torpedo-bomber, U-boat killer, day ranger, mine layer, and target tug.

 

[evangilder]

I don't know that all of this is necessary. They were both awesome airplanes and both filled many more roles than I think even the designers thought of. Is one better than the other? I don't think so.

 

[wmaxt]

"The best aircraft in many different roles" How you boys can argue about this i'll never know...
The "Timber Terror" was the most versatile of course.

Photo-recon, bomber, fighter-bomber, night-fighter, intruder, trainer, pathfinder, target marking, torpedo-bomber, U-boat killer, day ranger, mine layer, and target tug.

First in the Mossie the Bomber, fighter bomber, target marker/pathfinder(exactly the same thing), day ranger and intruder are all the same thing.

The P-38 was in to much demand to be used for U-boat patrols and towing targets.

I've never heard of a P-38 dropping mines but that was a naval thing, It could have if asked.

All other things were done of a normal basis plus dive bombing, skip bombing air ambulance, escort fighter, groung attack and could be set up for both skies and floats. Each of these require a different technique and in other aircraft either a different set-up or a dedicated aircraft.

The point I have to reinterate ANY P-38 (with the exception of the pure PR version) could do All OF THOSE THINGS (though there was a night fighter version late in the war and that was ADDED to everything else).

The bomber Mossie was not the same as the night fighter, the PR mossie or the attack Mossie and were not interchangeable. The Mossie was a Great Bomber and very versatile but it still couldn't match the P-38!

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Is one better than the other? I don't think so.

Can i first say i haven't read all 14 pages of this thread....But if the stakes were your life, what aircraft would you take in to combat over deep and dark Germany in this type of role?..Photo-recon, Weather-recon, bomber surport, night-fighter?

 

[wmaxt]

Is one better than the other? I don't think so.

Can i first say i haven't read all 14 pages of this thread....But if the stakes were your life, what aircraft would you take in to combat over deep and dark Germany in this type of role?..Photo-recon, Weather-recon, bomber surport, night-fighter?

The P-38 - F5, P-38L/M though I can't speak for the poor radar operator on long missions in the P-38M, I understand they were a little short on comfort.

How about bomber escort? P-38L

I'd still take the P-38L to drop up to 5,200lbs of bombs within 450 to 500mi and 2,000 to 3,000lbs at 800mi radius (1 300gal drop tank w/bombe-rockets).

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Come now, did you write that with your fingers and toes crossed To be fair i'm a right ol' snob and know nothing about the P-38....So i'm going to read up about it, and "I'll be back" 8)

 

[Gemhorse]

Well, with over 10,000 P-38's manufactured, they certainly spread them around too, but it remains that for my money, I feel the Mosquito pretty well did everything that was asked of it, and it did it all without any major teething troubles....it was 'economy' on wings at a time when everything was in short supply....All those variants were further developments based on the original theme of three basic design applications.

If the P-38 was to be expunged from service with all the 'accolades' it had gathered in an active WWII service of about the same timeframe it shared with the Mosquito, and also because of 'political expediency', it remained a great loss to the ongoing Allied Cause, as it was, with ongoing scraps like Korea developing....

Both aircraft shared the 'concentrated firepower' and both were exceptional at low or high altitude, although all the information I've managed to glean so far indicates the Mossie was easy and a delight to fly, in comparison to the P-38....and as far as mixing-it with single-eng/seat fighters, they were about the same as far as agility went, although I feel the Mosquito may have had an edge, as it had a greater wing area and wood flexes where metal tends to stress....De Havilland worked hard on that, and it breed a Legend....
They were both of around the same weight, tare and loaded, and both delivered impressive amounts of hardware.....

The Mosquito had a very good servicing record, not something these two aircraft had in common, but that may be that RAF Commonwealth servicing was a more intensive regime, whereas US servicing was more a case of if something stuffed-up, it would then be fixed, and this may have been reflected in the high loss-rate due to engine problems....The Mossie wasn't built to last an exceptional time in service, but being wood there wasn't a material shortage and they sustained and repaired easier...

Probably, in the final analysis, both felt the emergence of the 'Jet-age' and more powerful radials, to a degree, and the cost of one to the other realised a difference in that with melting-down aircraft at War's end, the Mossie wasn't high on that list, being wooden, and kept going until the early plywood glues started to come unstuck....that's been the predicament all these years later with the surviving ones....- If the majority of P-38's were just bulldozed and burnt where they were, that's really the difference between those of the UK, and the USA - Nothing is wasted in the UK and Commonwealth if it still has some use....Luckily there's 'Chino' and alot appears to have hung around there to reward the ardent restorer....but to all those P-38 fans out there, not many were P-38's unfortunately....To reproduce them now would be extremely expensive, and even though wood is getting pricey these days, for me it's a dream coming true that someone has got the nouse to figure-out how to rebuild the Mosquitos....There is huge support building, to get and keep both Merlins Allisons a-going, and it's a testament to the Vision some in the Warbird Fraternity have got....

I'm really of the belief that the DH Mosquito was the 'Best All-rounder', [probably 'cause I'm just stubborn too], but it certainly was the case as far as England Commonwealth were concerned....and I guess because as smaller nations, we don't have as much storage space, and a 'consumer-disposable' type attitude to all things; - If they stop working, we try to fix 'em again....

Whatever they cost brand-new, the DH Mosquito sure gave back value for money, in bullets, bombs, rockets and Victory.......

 

[plan_D]

I'm still impressed with that writing.

Who said the P-38 was in more theatres than the Mosquito? P-38 - CBI, Pacific, Europe, Med. Mosquito - CBI, Pacific, Europe, Russia. That's four each, by my count.

There must have been something the P-38 was doing wrong if the US asked for Mosquitos in the Pacific. Anywho, Germhorse - you missed out that the Mosquito was the first aircraft to bomb Berlin in daylight.

Also, it rained bombs on Goebbels parade.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

much to our ammusmant..............

 

[Lightning Guy]

P-38s did fly in Russia. Shuttle missions by the 15th AF initiated in Italy, hit targets in Eastern Europe, refueled and rearmed in Russia, then hit Eastern Europe on the way back to Italy. Several of these missions were escorted by P-38s.

The P-38 carried (and successful dropped) 2 21in torpedoes (more and larger torps than the Mossie carried.

In terms of aircombat, the P-38F (no combat or dive flaps) could turn inside the P-51. The later versions were able to turn with the Spitfire. There is no way the Mossie could manage that. Nor could the Mossie match the P-38 in the vertical plane. In any sort of airfight, the P-38 held a huge advantage.

 

[Gemhorse]

Thankyou, plan_D.....I did mention it a couple of posts back about Berlin...

I guess it's hard for some though, to accept that an aircraft that was conceived and built very quickly, out of plywood and balsa, had a coupla hairy-assed Merlins bolted-on and TWO chaps to fly fight, where-ever, when-ever and how-ever, to get their job done with legendary flair, could absolutely, possibly be better than anything that America built....even though the Brits gave them a few Sqn.'s worth of them because they were so good.....Next they will say the P-38 was SO sought-after, they couldn't do their own PR...????

It'll be a rainy day in hell before I concede the P-38 was a better aircraft than the All-rounder Mosquito....

That's why they made the Hornet, the P-38 would've been a wheelbarrow by comparison.....

To give the same blurry answer the US Admin still gives to any too-tough-to-answer questions, as to why they suddenly trashed P-38's at War's end in favour of the Mustang, another 'inline', albeit single-seater, after ALL the hoot n' holler about how great P-38's are, does not suffice....especially when the radials were in ascendency, prior to Jet aircraft....and as to P-38's being too 'war-weary'???...what wasn't by then....

The Mosquito lived-on [and will live-on] because it was a better All-rounder......................period

 

[(G/C) Lionel Mandrake]

Nor could the Mossie match the P-38 in the vertical plane. In any sort of airfight, the P-38 held a huge advantage.

It's no shame to say " Don't be scared to run away, because you live to fight another day" On it's terms the mosquito could take on anything German, except prehaps the Me 262. You cannot put the P-38 on the same pedestal as the 'Mossie'. I say this again, if the stakes were you life would you take a P-38 over Berlin in daylight?
How can you come to a conclusion the Mosquito was one of the best aircraft from WW2? Well, the Germans tried to copy it and failed! See the Ta 154.
They tried to beat it, and yes that failed too. See the Me 410. I think it's very fair to say the Luftwaffe never successfully dealt with the mosquito until the Me 262 came on tap. Can you really make this claim for the P-38. How many aces were there in the P-38 in ETO? How many German aircraft were shot down by the P-38?

Everything the Mosquito was asked to do it did with flying colours..It brought death to the German 'Tip and run' raiders, despite the high regard of the Me 410 or Fw 190. It was asked to go for the V-1s, again a job well done. It sunk U-boots. It could take on the He219 in it's own back yard.

It's ultimate accolad was the American's wanted it! Asked General 'Hap' Arnold.

 

[plan_D]

I wouldn't consider escorting bombers to Russia as actually being in the Russian theatre. If you're considering that, then the Mosquito was in the mid-east. As, if I remember correctly, they flew out to the CBI from Iraq.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and lanc attacked the tirpitz in norway from bases in russia, does that mean they flew in the eastern european theatre??

 

[Gemhorse]

Further notes reveal that Hap Arnold was so taken with the Mosquito, he had the traffic stopped in Washington D.C. so Geoffrey De Havilland could put on a half-hour display to impress Arnolds High Command friends, when he had instigated this tour after first seeing it demo-ed in UK...He tried hard to bargain for some, even offering P-51's as a swap...He was turned-down on that, but the UK released Canadian-produced B-VII's [5] and 35 B.XX's, which were later succeeded by over a 100 PR XVI's and some T.III's for training...

Also, the President's son, Col. Elliot Rooseveldt commanded a USAAF unit in N.Africa equipped with P-38 F-4's, but had tried-out a B.IV Mossie, finding it was faster and had greater range....another one who got 'hooked' on them, and pushed for them for US service....

The 8th AF 25th BG, 653 654 BS's were the main users of them in the ETO...they returned them at War's end...[how nice...they scrapped their P-38's though...]

The Mossie was also the first to PR Berlin, 8th March 1943....

The Mossie also PR'd Peenemunde, 2nd June 1943, first discovering the V2 and on 28th Nov. that year, spotted the first VI launch-site in France, Mosquitos eventually accounting for 600 of the incoming VI's....

They not only shot the crap out of shipping, they were also used for anti- U-Boat work, cannons, rockets AND depth-charges being used....

No way was the P-38 comparable to the Mosquitos' vast range of services, even the un-armed PR's could accommodate attacks by Fw-190's AND 262's, they evolved their own 'corkscrew' manuoevre if they were bounced...Fw's didn't handle the rare air at altitude, and had to get up a l'il dive to gain on the Mossie...that was probably why they developed the Ta-152 series, especially the high-altitude model....

The Mosquito was the biggest pain in Germany's ass of any particular Allied aircraft....that was a stated fact....right from their debut.....

The P-51 was the greatest US fighter of the War, equipping all but one FG [P-47's of 56th FG was the only other...] by War's end in the ETO....
Basically, the P-38 was the US's first long-range escort fighter, but it was really a 'stop-gap' fighter that was replaced by P-47'S 51's.....

The DH Mosquito was THE BEST ALL-ROUNDER OF WWII......period