best combination of manuverabilty and speed in an allied...

[Jabberwocky]

Which Spit had the fastest climb rate to 33,000 ft?

I have no figures for 33,000 feet, but lots for 30,000:

British testing shows that the HF Mk IX (Merlin 70) could get to 30,000 feet in just 7.8 minutes. A HF VII (Merlin 71, only 14 made serving with just 1 squadron) might actually be very slightly faster than that, as its best throttle height is about 2,000 feet higher.

Mk XIV could get to 30,000 feet in 8.3 minutes

A Mk VIII (Merlin 66) could get to 30,000 feet in 8.6 minutes

A standard LF Mk IX (Merlin 66) could get to 30,000 feet in 8.4 minutes

A early Mk IX (Merlin 61) could get to 30,000 feet in 9.2 minutes

A +25 lbs capable Mk VIII/IX would be faster than any of these, having a boost of some 100-800 fpm over the +18 lbs Mk IX, depending on altitude and boost power. I just don't have any hard and fast figures handy. The boost (and climb rate) climb rate advantage gets less and less with altitude, petering out at about 18,000 feet. Still, it should get to 20,000 feet in under 4 and a half minutes , and climb the same as a standard IX above 18,000.

See this report http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html for more details

 

[syscom3]

Für Bodenplatte:

........
57 MIA
86 KIA
70 POW
21 WIA
102 pilots came away ok

........

What became of the 57 MIA? How many dead or POW?

 

[Hop]

Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires.

Luftwaffe records credit him with 31 kills during the BoB:

16 Spitfires
14 Hurricanes
1 Curtis

This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.

The problem is, this is during a time when the Luftwaffe were overclaiming like mad. In particular, they were overclaiming Spitfires.

Note Wick's claims, more Spitfires than Hurricanes, despite the fact the Hurricane served in far greater numbers, and suffered far greater losses.

The German version of Jagdwaffe kills in the BoB:

14 Curtiss
23 Defiants
715 Hurricanes
7 Moranes
1239 Spitfires

Actual RAF losses were about 900 single engined fighters (no Moranes or Curtiss types were operated at all). Of that 900, about 60% were Hurricanes, 40% Spitfires. Despite that, the Jagdwaffe claimed far, far more Spitfires than Hurricanes, which some have called "Spitfire snoberry". Bear in mind the 900 figure is for all losses on operations, which includes bomber's defensive fire, collisions etc.

Wick's 17 Spitfires are actually probably closer to 5, if he overclaimed by the same amount as other Luftwaffe pilots at the time.

To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.

Allied aces operated for restricted tours, in a target poor enviroment, and under a system that didn't reward kills as much as the German system, or structure squadrons so that a single pilot made most of the kills, and the rest were there to protect him.

Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy:

""This was part of the Luftwaffe's emphasis on individual stardom and it had some negative aspects. At the margin, some of the most successful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of their protecting wingmen, the poor old 'Katschmareks'. Ulrich Steinhilper reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:
The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by the NCOs who felt more aggrieved than the officers. Why was it, they would ask so often, that the decorations are, in the main, only handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were also running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by the losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course, it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.
Those known to be plagued by a chronic desire to have a Knight's Cross and its various accoutrements (Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds) dangling around their necks were said to be suffering from "Halsweh" (a sore throat). Adolf Galland was one well known sufferer, and he used his position first as Gruppenkomandeur of III/JG26 then as Kommodore of the whole Geschwader to hand pick his wingmen.""

Do you think the 1.8 ata K-4s would have had that much trouble dogfighting with any of the Mk XIVs?

Yes. The 1.8 ata K4 would climb worse, turn worse, and have a poor armament for combat against fighters. It's only advantage over the Spitfire XIV would be a marginal dive acceleration advantage.

 

[Hop]

Mr. Glider:

I do know how many Mk. VIIIs were made. I was referring to that particular model Mr. Jabberwocky pointed in his comment: a +25 lbs boost, the "Basta" modification of the Merlin engine.

He first failed to mention what was the strenght of a RAF squadron. But then he said a 20 aircraft squadron.

If only 2 squadrons were fitted with such variant, its contribution was insignificant.

I'm not aware of any Spitfire VIIIs running at 25lbs boost in service. (any evidence to the contrary gratefully received).

The reason for that is that 25 lbs boost required 100/150 grade fuel, and that was limited to Britain, afaik. Spitfire VIIIs, being fitted with extra fuel tanks and tropical filters, didn't serve from Britain, they all went overseas (the Med, Middle and Far East)

However, the Spitfire IX did serve from Britain using 25 lbs boost, and from the end of 1944 used 25 lbs boost on operations from the continent. The instructions for the conversion specified 25 Spitfire IX squadrons (20 aircraft per squadron)

The differences between the Spitfire VIII and IX were minor. The IX was a bit lighter, carried a bit less fuel, and didn't have a retractable tailwheel. Speed, climb, roll and turn were almost identical between the two models.

 

[KraziKanuK]

My poor Udet, unlike you I never claim the Spit was the be all, end all of fighter a/c, like you do for the 109s. LOL, the *uber twins* are now triplets.

The only evasive action was by you because you wondered from the example given > Bodenplatte. That is the usual tactic by those of the *German is uber, all else is crap* ilk.

Not hard to have amassed large numbers of kills when the Germans only had 2 s/e fighter types, unlike the Brits who had to spread the kills among at least 6.

Btw, H Bar flew a Dora during Bodenplatte and had to keep throttling back as the 109G/Ks could not keep up. Should I also mention the 487th FS in P-51s which took off with full wing and fuselage fuel tanks during the attack and desimatted JG11, all at low level. The P-51 is said to be a 'dog' with a full fuel load. So much for your uber 109s.


Jabberwocky, pick up Bodenplatte by Monrho/Purz. The most detailed account of Jan 1 1945 yet. ISBN 1-902109-40-6

 

[Hunter368]

Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires.

Luftwaffe records credit him with 31 kills during the BoB:

16 Spitfires
14 Hurricanes
1 Curtis

This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.

The problem is, this is during a time when the Luftwaffe were overclaiming like mad. In particular, they were overclaiming Spitfires.

Note Wick's claims, more Spitfires than Hurricanes, despite the fact the Hurricane served in far greater numbers, and suffered far greater losses.

The German version of Jagdwaffe kills in the BoB:

14 Curtiss
23 Defiants
715 Hurricanes
7 Moranes
1239 Spitfires

Actual RAF losses were about 900 single engined fighters (no Moranes or Curtiss types were operated at all). Of that 900, about 60% were Hurricanes, 40% Spitfires. Despite that, the Jagdwaffe claimed far, far more Spitfires than Hurricanes, which some have called "Spitfire snoberry". Bear in mind the 900 figure is for all losses on operations, which includes bomber's defensive fire, collisions etc.

Wick's 17 Spitfires are actually probably closer to 5, if he overclaimed by the same amount as other Luftwaffe pilots at the time.

To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.

Allied aces operated for restricted tours, in a target poor enviroment, and under a system that didn't reward kills as much as the German system, or structure squadrons so that a single pilot made most of the kills, and the rest were there to protect him.

Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy:

""This was part of the Luftwaffe's emphasis on individual stardom and it had some negative aspects. At the margin, some of the most successful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of their protecting wingmen, the poor old 'Katschmareks'. Ulrich Steinhilper reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:
The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by the NCOs who felt more aggrieved than the officers. Why was it, they would ask so often, that the decorations are, in the main, only handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were also running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by the losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course, it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.
Those known to be plagued by a chronic desire to have a Knight's Cross and its various accoutrements (Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds) dangling around their necks were said to be suffering from "Halsweh" (a sore throat). Adolf Galland was one well known sufferer, and he used his position first as Gruppenkomandeur of III/JG26 then as Kommodore of the whole Geschwader to hand pick his wingmen.""

Do you think the 1.8 ata K-4s would have had that much trouble dogfighting with any of the Mk XIVs?

Yes. The 1.8 ata K4 would climb worse, turn worse, and have a poor armament for combat against fighters. It's only advantage over the Spitfire XIV would be a marginal dive acceleration advantage.

Just wanted to ask one thing here, are you saying that Germans over claimed more than the British or USA ever did ?

 

[Hunter368]

My poor Udet, unlike you I never claim the Spit was the be all, end all of fighter a/c, like you do for the 109s. LOL, the *uber twins* are now triplets.

The only evasive action was by you because you wondered from the example given > Bodenplatte. That is the usual tactic by those of the *German is uber, all else is crap* ilk.

Not hard to have amassed large numbers of kills when the Germans only had 2 s/e fighter types, unlike the Brits who had to spread the kills among at least 6.

Btw, H Bar flew a Dora during Bodenplatte and had to keep throttling back as the 109G/Ks could not keep up. Should I also mention the 487th FS in P-51s which took off with full wing and fuselage fuel tanks during the attack and desimatted JG11, all at low level. The P-51 is said to be a 'dog' with a full fuel load. So much for your uber 109s.


Jabberwocky, pick up Bodenplatte by Monrho/Purz. The most detailed account of Jan 1 1945 yet. ISBN 1-902109-40-6

It is very clear that at this point in the war that German average pilots skill level had dropped off very bad, but a victory over a average German pilot is not the same as a victory over the average German pilot from say 1939-42. Again I say it has less to do with the plane they were flying and more to do with the little training these green pilots have. Both the 109 and Spit are very fine planes.

 

[Hop]

Just wanted to ask one thing here, are you saying that Germans over claimed more than the British or USA ever did ?

No, all sides over claimed. They did it more over enemy territory, when they didn't have ground observers, and when there were large battles. The Luftwaffe spent most of the war fighting over their own airspace, so had more opportunity to check pilot's kill claims.

But in case like the BoB, and fighting over the sea, and deserts, the Luftwaffe overclaimed as much as anyone.

 

[Hunter368]

Just wanted to ask one thing here, are you saying that Germans over claimed more than the British or USA ever did ?

No, all sides over claimed. They did it more over enemy territory, when they didn't have ground observers, and when there were large battles. The Luftwaffe spent most of the war fighting over their own airspace, so had more opportunity to check pilot's kill claims.

But in case like the BoB, and fighting over the sea, and deserts, the Luftwaffe overclaimed as much as anyone.

100% agree, just wanted to be clear on that one.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am going to have me some action here, finally. Things were getting quite cozy in here.

And you think you determine how things are in this forum!
Go home to mommy!

Secondly, mr. Der Adler and his hilarious opinions. What makes you think only you can find others funny eh?

Alright let me answer this in 4 parts.

1. My hilarious opinions?! I AM ENTITLED TO WHATEVER FUCKING OPINIONS I FEEL LIKE, JUST LIKE YOUR STUPID ASS OPINIONS THAT HALF THE TIME HAVE NO WIEGHT OR BEARING BECUASE THEY ARE DISTORTED WITH BIASED ONE SIDED THOUGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!

2. I decide what I think is funny, not what you want me to think is funny. YOU DONT LIKE THAT, GO POST SOME PLACE ELSE!!!!!!!!!

3. I HAVE NOT INSULTED YOU ONCE YET IN THIS THREAD OR IN THIS FORUM AS A MATTER OF FACT. DONT YOU DARE GO AROUND AND START INSULTING ME!!!!!!!! COMPARED TO OTHER ADMINS ON HERE, I PLAY THE GOOD COP, HOWEVER IF YOU PISS ME OFF UDET I CAN BECOME THE BIGGEST THORN IN YOUR ASS ON THIS FORUM. DONT MAKE ME BE THE BAD GUY!!!!!!!!!!!

4. Lastly you have a serious problem on here talking down to people like you are better than them. Stop pretending to be sitting high up in your castle looking down at pesents. You aint that big!!!! You act like you are over compensating for a small Dick!!!! Jesus Christ man I know your 18 so start acting like a man instead of little punk!

Alot of people around here dont like your attitude. Thats right you make opinions of others, well they can do the same to you and frankly they are right. You act like some kind of all being no it all, well I got knews for you there is more knowledge out there than your 18 year old brain can handle!

You feel free to completely dismiss other peoples statements as completly wrong, yet your reasons are completly based off of opinions and not facts. You throw out supposed facts, but know one else has heard of them, but hey you know everyone else is wrong because your 18 year old or 20 year whatever you are, has been there, done that, and knows more than anyone else. Maybe that works that way in Mexico or in your RICH LITTLE DADDIES WORLD THAT YOU LIVE IN, BUT NOT IN THE REAL WORLD!

RESPECT IS EARNED NOT GIVEN UDET!!!!!!!! EARN IT IF YOU WANT IT!!!

 

[MacArther]

Yes, please don't mess with admins (see:anywhere) on the site. Der is a good source for critique, as well as administration, so lay off. Sorry, if I butted in, but it had to be said.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thankyou McArther I appreciate it.

It is funny I rarely get mad at people on this forum and as a matter of fact I think I get along with most people on this forum.

 

[cheddar cheese]

I CAN BECOME THE BIGGEST THORN IN YOUR ASS ON THIS FORUM

Actually, I can be a bigger one, seeing as I am literally a large thorn But you get the idea.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Mr. KrazyKanuk:

Well, this might be the last time I waste my time in responding to you.

Now I am moving away from technical data sheets which appear to be the specialty of several guys here. Now the hardest of the facts: battle record.

Yours was an interesting evasive action: "they do not have to be aces..."

22 Bf 109 Gs and Ks? Not what you can call a fruitful harvest when one knows of the number of German fighters deployed for the operation.

But back in business wasting my time with you:

Possibly so, they do not have to be aces...the point is that wherever you look, whatever the period or phase of the war you pick, you name it: Battle of Britain, 1941, 1942, 1943, pre D-day 1944, post D-day 1944, the Bf 109 produced far more aces than any of its contemporary Spitfire ever came close to achieve during each period.

Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires. This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.

"Johnnie" Johnson shot down 38 German planes within a period of 3 years.

So Mr. Crazy, differences are substantial as you might perceive.

To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.

But no. Such aces do not exist. Noble Marmaduk (south africa)? If I recall correctly he never flew Spitfires, the fact is he got shot down and killed early in the war by a Bf 110 -another one of the planes the allies have portrayed as "doomed"-.

Where are the aces of fighter force that was in a state of war the entire duration of WWII -nearly 6 years-? Furthermore, where are those aces who flew, according to your words, a plane that virtually surpassed most -if not all- German designs?

Something must be very rotten around here.

The brunt of the fighter war over Europe in 1944-45 was carried out by the P-51s, P-47s and P-38s, the Jug more importantly.

See there you go, talking to him like you own him and are better than him. You constantly say you are wasting your time talking to him. If we here are waisting your time, then go and post in another forum. If you do not like talking to us because we are a waste of time, go and post someplace else. If you dont like us, you are not welcome here, go someplace else!

 

[Gnomey]

Adler "believe" is spelt wrong it should be believe not belive...

I will agree admins can be very annoying...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i've never really had a problem with them, apart from the time CC changed my profile to say i'm gay

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler "believe" is spelt wrong it should be believe not belive...

I will agree admins can be very annoying...

Ooops! When I type pissed off, I type Ueber fast and make mistakes and dont go back and retype them!

You agree that admins can be annoying? Damn man I am sorry that we annoy you!

 

[Gnomey]

You don't annoy me but you (all - maybe not CC) are firm when neccessary (remember I moderate too...)

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

how did you get mod powers?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh I see what you mean, you are on WW2 Talk right. I see the link now at the bottom.