best combination of manuverabilty and speed in an allied...

[Hunter368]

Udet,

I may of started out here on this forum on the wrong foot alittle but I have made my amens for that. Treat everyone one here as a equal and with respect and they will do like wise. Having different opinions is fine just express them respectfully, I love to debate more than anyone. Chris (Adler), Evan, Eric, even Les (he might come across alittle crazy at times but he is very fair, he just tells it as it is, I respect that), any of the other admins here that I have not mentioned sorry I just have not talked alot with you meaning no disrespect, they are all very fair and knowledgeable. Chris (Adler) is a great and fine guy, I would back him up anytime any place. Sorry Chris I didn't want to butt in but you are very fair guy and anyone taking shots at you deserves a few shots. Udet post respectfully and you will do fine, don't well you will find out whats next .....

 

[Udet]

Quote:

"You feel free to completely dismiss other peoples statements as completly wrong, yet your reasons are completly based off of opinions and not facts. You throw out supposed facts.."

DARE YOU to prove this assertion.

Supposed facts? Which ones could those be?

Bring on the facts and not just the words.



One more thing with you: I am not here to be liked. Learn this very well.

I am here for further learning -and I have with several people here-, and to tell my views. Period.

If you, and many others dislike my "attitude" which is nothing else but defending my points of view, based on the information I have managed to gather in past years, that is your sole problem -and theirs-. It´s not even a concern I have on a list.

Isn´t it strange you do not react on a similar fashion with any other members defending their own views, something many do in quite a more aggressive style? But you are free to do whatever.

Ah, and I did not insult you.

I simply responded using the same measurements you applied to me in your last posting when you roughly said "and his views are gettind old...", supported with lots of emoticons showing either smiles or laughter.


So that is what I did, nothing else, nothing excessive. I have never launched insults at anyone, and never will.

Be sure though, I will always come up with controversy wherever I feel is required. Also that I will defend myself always.

You want to be a "thorn in the ass" here? Do whatever you want. I am just an ordinary member.

Also, do not lecture me about the real world. You do not know me. I do not know you, I do not lecture you or anyone else about the real world.



Mr. Hop:

If you have any doubts on that Spit Mk. VIII running at +25lbs, ask Mr. Jabberwocky.

 

[Gnomey]

how did you get mod powers?

I didn't.

Oh I see what you mean, you are on WW2 Talk right. I see the link now at the bottom.

There is your answer, the link is in my sig...

 

[cheddar cheese]

You don't annoy me but you (all - maybe not CC) are firm when neccessary (remember I moderate too...)

Hey. Nah I know that, most of the touble seems to originate in politics, where I dont visit much, or someone else just gets there first...

We have a great team of admins and all contribute to the smooth running of the site...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Quote:

"You feel free to completely dismiss other peoples statements as completly wrong, yet your reasons are completly based off of opinions and not facts. You throw out supposed facts.."

DARE YOU to prove this assertion.

Supposed facts? Which ones could those be?

Bring on the facts and not just the words.

First you start stating facts and Ill give you something other than words!

One more thing with you: I am not here to be liked. Learn this very well.

You dont tell me what I have to learn and what I dont! I take that as a threat and for that you get your first warning!

If you, and many others dislike my "attitude" which is nothing else but defending my points of view, based on the information I have managed to gather in past years, that is your sole problem -and theirs-. It´s not even a concern I have on a list.

I will tell you this one more time and as a member of this forum, you are not better than a single person here, and you will act like that. You will not talk down to anyone here. If you are wasting your time by talking to them, leave this forum!

Isn´t it strange you do not react on a similar fashion with any other members defending their own views, something many do in quite a more aggressive style? But you are free to do whatever.

I choose when and where I wish to step in!

Be sure though, I will always come up with controversy wherever I feel is required. Also that I will defend myself always.

As long as you do it with respect, then you can do whatever you please. I actually agree with a lot of things that you say, however you do them in a very wrong way and I find it disrespectful. As soon as you do not agree with some one you tell them that you are not going to waste your time with them anymore and that they have absolute clue what they are talking about and dumb and naive and believe in Allied Propoganda. Again Respect is Earned!!!! You have not Earned it!

 

[Erich]

Gentlemen if I may add as one of the moderators on board here.

BE CIVIL !

we all come here with great expectations to learn and no-one and I mean no-one has all the answers.............

may I suggest we take more time to formulate our texts in answer and not as a mean rebuttle of words as whom are we trying to impress..........ourselves..........big deal ! there is some good and benefical information to be had here, let us not wreck this ok ?

I really do not want to see us go down a road similiar to other fourms on the net that I have had the displeasure of moderating on.

cool down, take a deep breath

 

[syscom3]

Without a doubt, the Spit had the best turning rate of all the allied fighters. But the P47 had a great roll rate up at 30K, the P38 and F4U both had excellent climb speeds and the P47's diving ability was legendary. The P51 was the fastest of the bunch with decent maneuverability. The Typhoon sounded like it was nearly unstoppable at low altitudes.

So in what flight regimes was the Spitfire behind other allied aircraft?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here ya go....

"The Fw 190 has a peak roll rate of over 160 degs/sec just below 250 knots, this then decreases but is not overtaken until reaching 360 knots (by the P-51).

The clipped wing Spitfire has a peak roll rate of 150 degs/sec at 200 knots: it is superior to the 190 until 220 knots and then runs slightly below that until also overtaken by the P-51 at 355 knots.

The normal wing Spitfire has a peak roll rate of 105 degs/sec at 200 knots, this is overtaken by the P-63 (the best roll performing US fighter) which peaks in turn at 110 d/s at 270 knots.

The P-47C is shown peaking at 84 d/s at 230 knots. Like other US fighters, the roll rate is less peaky and falls away more gradually. The P-51B peaks at 94 d/s, 310 knots. The P-40 has a similar characteristic but at a slower speed.

The Wildcat and Hellcat both peak just under 70 d/s around 260 knots. However, both are superior to the Zero.

Sadly, the F4U is not quoted. So although this study backs my comment on the P-47 I may yet have to eat my words on the Corsair!"


http://www.us-aircraft.com/bbs/army_config.pl?read=2089

 

[Erich]

Bomber escorts ? granted the RAF did fly day time missions with the 4 engine heavies in 45 but were late mark Spits flying with them.

little weak on this sorry ........

E ~

 

[Hunter368]

I would not like to have to face a P47 with the good prop on it. Dives like hell climbs well, fast, armed to the teeth and very tough to take down. Just like in a real fight I don't care if you win or lose you are going to take a few also. The P47 could dish it out better than most and it could take it to. Not alot of planes could give as good as they took, P47 was scary. Not really a dog fighter presay but who cares about dog fighting, I would not dog fight, hit and run thats the way to go, keeps you alive longer.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Gentlemen if I may add as one of the moderators on board here.

BE CIVIL !

we all come here with great expectations to learn and no-one and I mean no-one has all the answers.............

may I suggest we take more time to formulate our texts in answer and not as a mean rebuttle of words as whom are we trying to impress..........ourselves..........big deal ! there is some good and benefical information to be had here, let us not wreck this ok ?

I really do not want to see us go down a road similiar to other fourms on the net that I have had the displeasure of moderating on.

cool down, take a deep breath

Agreed!

Great info there to FBJ!

 

[wmaxt]

The P-38J-25/Ls slow speed roll rate is a bit slower than the P-51s but surpasses it at 325mph and passes the Fw-190 at about 340mph. It maxes out around 100deg/s at about 450mph (Lockheed numbers) though I've seen 110deg/sec claimed. This is aileron imput only, initial roll performance can be enhanced with throttle imput.

In '42 the P-38F was tested with all the AAF fighters ang was reported to turn as tightly (P-40) or better (P-39, P-47, P-51A) up to 15,000ft and the advantage got better as it went higher.

On the Docs page, is a test of a P-38F with 2 Spit IX's one high reduction(.477) and 1 with a lower reduction (.42) and the British decided the Spitfire could turn a little tighter but all other perameters the P-38 was in the middle between the Spitfires below 25,000ft where the Spitfire had more of an edge. They also noted a few moves the Spitfire couldn't follow effectively.

The late P-38J and L models were measurably better than the F was especialy at altitude.

wmaxt

 

[syscom3]

Is it not true that roll rates would be different as compared between sea level and 30K?

And was there a roll rate limitation from the G forces on the pilot? It wouldnt make sense to have a fast rolling plane with a pilot blacked out as compared to slower rolling plane where the pilot is still in control.

 

[wmaxt]

Is it not true that roll rates would be different as compared between sea level and 30K?

And was there a roll rate limitation from the G forces on the pilot? It wouldnt make sense to have a fast rolling plane with a pilot blacked out as compared to slower rolling plane where the pilot is still in control.

Thats a good question and I don't know. Having said that, one is generaly going faster at altitude, at least at first, which would tighten things up a bit.

The original F4U was much faster rolling but was slowed to better balance the controls. I have also read comments from pilots that the P-38, using differential throttle to help initate a roll, could bang your head on the canopy from the abruptness but I've never heard of an aircraft rolling fast enough to black out the pilot.

I ran across some control imput info on the P-51D and P-47D at best corner speed of 300mph+/-
P-51 3g pull = 48# and a 5g pull = 86#
P-47 3g pull = 16# and a 5g pull = 27#
I don't have numbers for the P-38 just coments that rudder and elevators were great but in early models the ailerons were very high effort which is why they used a wheel instead of a stick.

wmaxt

 

[syscom3]

........

I ran across some control imput info on the P-51D and P-47D at best corner speed of 300mph+/-
P-51 3g pull = 48# and a 5g pull = 86#
P-47 3g pull = 16# and a 5g pull = 27#
......wmaxt

Can you explain that a little clearer. I dont know what "48#" means.

Thanks!!!

 

[KraziKanuK]

# = pound(lb), so 48# = 48lb

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would love to compare that to other aircraft such as the Spitfire, Bf-109, and Fw-190.

 

[Udet]

For the record:

"Don't have to be aces.

#2 in XIVs got a K-4
#401 in IXs got 4 109s
#403 in XIVs got 3 109s
#414 in IXs got 3 109s

IXs - 7, XIVs - 4

Could be more but I wasted enough time..."


If the audience takes a little time, they will see Mister KrazyKanuk wrote this before I responded in the same measure. He felt he was wasting his time and got no warning.

Case closed.

Have a lovely, a fascinating day.

*smoochies*

 

[syscom3]

Its interesting that the P51 has a high roll rate at high speeds. Perhaps it is better than the Spitfire at speeds above 350 knots.

Now down on the deck, I would suppose speed is what would keep you out of trouble.

What allied plane was the fastest at sea level?

 

[wmaxt]

Its interesting that the P51 has a high roll rate at high speeds. Perhaps it is better than the Spitfire at speeds above 350 knots.

Now down on the deck, I would suppose speed is what would keep you out of trouble.

What allied plane was the fastest at sea level?

Well the P-51s roll rate maxes out at about 95deg/s at ~300mph and drops to about 76deg/s at 450mph and I'm sure the effort is very high at those speeds. I think you'll find its more likely a high average rate.

wmaxt