Best light AFV of WW2
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Well lets say it can't be over 25 tons in weight for one, I'd say that is the only boundary we need.
And yes, the Puma is a very good candidate, thats why I mentioned it
But it's far from the only candidate, there are a bunch of other vehicles both axis allied which need to be considered as-well.
And yes, the Puma is a very good candidate, thats why I mentioned it
But it's far from the only candidate, there are a bunch of other vehicles both axis allied which need to be considered as-well.If the 25 tons is the limit, then Pz-IVs and StuGs are the top contenders
But for a wheeled wehicle, the British AEC armoured cars are strong contenders: converted truck hulls, turrets featuring nice cannons, and armor up to 60mm. While not so sexy as Puma, I'd say 2 AECs could be produced for one Puma.
And Daimler Dingo is a neat vehicle, if one wants that a recon vehicle performs a recon job, and run away in case enemy aims to destroy it.
Out of tracked jobs, under 20 tons, M3/M5/M24 (depends of the year we talk about) are good types. And JgdPz 38(t) a.k.a. Hetzer was very useful.
But for a wheeled wehicle, the British AEC armoured cars are strong contenders: converted truck hulls, turrets featuring nice cannons, and armor up to 60mm. While not so sexy as Puma, I'd say 2 AECs could be produced for one Puma.
And Daimler Dingo is a neat vehicle, if one wants that a recon vehicle performs a recon job, and run away in case enemy aims to destroy it.
Out of tracked jobs, under 20 tons, M3/M5/M24 (depends of the year we talk about) are good types. And JgdPz 38(t) a.k.a. Hetzer was very useful.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That includes almost every armored vehicle in the German Army except Panther and Tiger tanks!
Vehicles of the Wehrmacht
I would like to nominate the Sd.Kfz.251/21 light flak vehicle. It cost roughly 1/5th the price of a Panther or Panzer Mk IV tank. The triple MG151/20 pedestal mount is a serious threat to enemy aircraft and also useful vs ground targets. Unlike the early war Sd.Kfz.7/1, the weapons crew of the late war flak vehicle were well protected against small arms fire and artillery fragments.
The Sd.Kfz.251 series half track and MG-151/20 were standard German weapons for most of the war. In my opinion the Wehrmacht took much too long merging them to produce an inexpensive and highly effective light flak vehicle.
Vehicles of the Wehrmacht
I would like to nominate the Sd.Kfz.251/21 light flak vehicle. It cost roughly 1/5th the price of a Panther or Panzer Mk IV tank. The triple MG151/20 pedestal mount is a serious threat to enemy aircraft and also useful vs ground targets. Unlike the early war Sd.Kfz.7/1, the weapons crew of the late war flak vehicle were well protected against small arms fire and artillery fragments.
The Sd.Kfz.251 series half track and MG-151/20 were standard German weapons for most of the war. In my opinion the Wehrmacht took much too long merging them to produce an inexpensive and highly effective light flak vehicle.
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German half-tracks really have that something
As pointed out by dave, Germans could've married a decent weapon on a decent chassis in late 30's. Eg. 15cm howitzer on it's half-track (what was the name, Sdkfz 7?), then 10,5cm on some lighter ones, then Czech guns on Pz-35 Pz-38... But, to be fair, other countries lagged behind them in such enterprises.
As pointed out by dave, Germans could've married a decent weapon on a decent chassis in late 30's. Eg. 15cm howitzer on it's half-track (what was the name, Sdkfz 7?), then 10,5cm on some lighter ones, then Czech guns on Pz-35 Pz-38... But, to be fair, other countries lagged behind them in such enterprises.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
I'd to go with the Puma as well me think....
Edit....
Weight 10,500 kg (23,148 lb)
Length 6.02 m (19 ft 9 in)
Width 2.36 m (7 ft 9 in)
Height 2.10 m (6 ft 10 in)
Crew 4
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Armor 9-30 mm (.35-1.18 in)
Primary armament (Puma) 1x50mm L/60 KwK 39/1[2]
(234/1) 1x20mm autocannon
(234/3) 1x75mm K51
Secondary armament 1x7.92mm machinegun
Engine 14,825 cc (905 in3) Tatra 103[1] V12 diesel 157 kW (210 hp)
Suspension wheeled
Operational range 1,000 km (625 mi)
Speed 85 km/h (53 mph)
Edit....
Weight 10,500 kg (23,148 lb)
Length 6.02 m (19 ft 9 in)
Width 2.36 m (7 ft 9 in)
Height 2.10 m (6 ft 10 in)
Crew 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor 9-30 mm (.35-1.18 in)
Primary armament (Puma) 1x50mm L/60 KwK 39/1[2]
(234/1) 1x20mm autocannon
(234/3) 1x75mm K51
Secondary armament 1x7.92mm machinegun
Engine 14,825 cc (905 in3) Tatra 103[1] V12 diesel 157 kW (210 hp)
Suspension wheeled
Operational range 1,000 km (625 mi)
Speed 85 km/h (53 mph)
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Considering the massive Allied superiority in airpower, SP flak is a lot more important then almost any other type of German light armor. I'd rather have towed 10.5cm field howitzers protected by Sd.kfz.251 light flak then Wespe SP 10.5cm field howitzers without flak protection.
Puma is probably going to win this one. Nobody has the combined package that is as good. All other armored cars are too lightly amored and armed and every else's weapons platforms just can't stand up. The Puma could take on a tank with a chance of success. No other Armored Car (which what we're talking about) fits in that realm.
Better question parameters would include light tanks. Then, you've got more to work with.
Better question parameters would include light tanks. Then, you've got more to work with.
Glider
Captain
Part of the problem we have here is thqat there were so many types of light AFV for many different purposes.
If you want a Recce A/C then the Daimler Armoured Car is probably unmatched.
If you want an A/C to take on a tank, then there are only two real options, the Puma with its 50mm gun or the AEC Armoured car with either a 6pd gun or the 75mm depending on type.
If you want light tanks then there are a number of options as there are AA tanks or A/C's
You pay your money and take your choice but I think you might want to break it down by role and weight. 25 tons isn't what most people would call light.
If you want a Recce A/C then the Daimler Armoured Car is probably unmatched.
If you want an A/C to take on a tank, then there are only two real options, the Puma with its 50mm gun or the AEC Armoured car with either a 6pd gun or the 75mm depending on type.
If you want light tanks then there are a number of options as there are AA tanks or A/C's
You pay your money and take your choice but I think you might want to break it down by role and weight. 25 tons isn't what most people would call light.
Hello Tim
In fact British 2pdr with Little-John adapter had better penetration power than 5cm L/60 of Puma even with APCR ammo. Of course if the adapter was in the place 2pdr could not use HE shell, so it lacked flexibility. But even without the Little-John adapter 2pdr with APCBC shot could just penetrate PzIVs turret front from 500y or Panther's turret sides around the same distance
The AEC armoured cars which Tomo mentioned were armed: Mk I 2pdr, Mk II 6pdr, which was more powerful A/T weapon than 5cm L/60 and MK III 75mm ala Sherman, which while not as good hole puncher as 6pdr was still better than 5cm L/60. Of course their off road mobility were not as good as that of Puma.
So a good contender is IMHO Daimler Armoured Car, not as powerful as Puma but probably cheaper. And I also like the Daimler Scout Car
In fact British 2pdr with Little-John adapter had better penetration power than 5cm L/60 of Puma even with APCR ammo. Of course if the adapter was in the place 2pdr could not use HE shell, so it lacked flexibility. But even without the Little-John adapter 2pdr with APCBC shot could just penetrate PzIVs turret front from 500y or Panther's turret sides around the same distance
The AEC armoured cars which Tomo mentioned were armed: Mk I 2pdr, Mk II 6pdr, which was more powerful A/T weapon than 5cm L/60 and MK III 75mm ala Sherman, which while not as good hole puncher as 6pdr was still better than 5cm L/60. Of course their off road mobility were not as good as that of Puma.
So a good contender is IMHO Daimler Armoured Car, not as powerful as Puma but probably cheaper. And I also like the Daimler Scout Car
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- Thread starter
- #15
Dave,
The Sdkfz.251 is more of an APC than an AFV in my opinion, and I don't really think it belongs here. That having been said the Sdkfz.251 is without a doubt the best APC of the war.
Another candidate might be the Pzkpfw.II Ausf.F Luchs:
Armament: 20mm KwK38 L/55 autocannon (460 rpm) 7.92mm MG34 machinegun (900 rpm)
Armour: 10 to 30mm
Speed: 60 km/h
Range: 290 km
Crew: 4
Wouldn't wanna run into one of those.
The Sdkfz.251 is more of an APC than an AFV in my opinion, and I don't really think it belongs here. That having been said the Sdkfz.251 is without a doubt the best APC of the war.
Another candidate might be the Pzkpfw.II Ausf.F Luchs:
Armament: 20mm KwK38 L/55 autocannon (460 rpm) 7.92mm MG34 machinegun (900 rpm)
Armour: 10 to 30mm
Speed: 60 km/h
Range: 290 km
Crew: 4
Wouldn't wanna run into one of those.
I think Glider has hit it, the best way to figure this thing out is either make it more refined (best vehicle by role) or less restrictive (best armored vehicle under 25 tons).
If you go based on weight, then you could toss in the M18 Hellcat and the M24 Chaffee. If I had a choice, I'd rather be in a Hellcat than a Puma.
If you go based on weight, then you could toss in the M18 Hellcat and the M24 Chaffee. If I had a choice, I'd rather be in a Hellcat than a Puma.
Juha. Didn't know about the APCR called Little John. Thanks for the info. I guess a case of making the best of a bad situation. 2lb wasn't much of a round but the upgrade obviously helped. Still, wouldn't want to be wandering NW Europe in 1944 with a 2lb (or 37MM, 57MM, ect )weapon as my main armament. I know the US M3/M5 tanks had those as Main Gun and that had to be depressing to the crew.
You bring up a good point, tangentally, about armored vehicles. Price and ease of use. The Puma was probably a maintainence heavy vehicle, especially when considered vs a M8 or similar.
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- #18
Ok, that knocks a lot of TDs out of the box. Still, a few oddballs may sneak in under that weight. Especially the light tanks. Could probably get the M5 in there. Maybe a few of the Soviet cruiser tanks of earlier vintage.
But I'm still favoring the biggest gun in this one. Read on wiki the Sd.Kfz. 234/4 had a 7.5cm gun. That'll do it.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
TheCoventry armoured car I am not sure if it ever got into action but was built from late 1944 on. All the experience gained with the Daimler armoured car went into designing this and the French made very good use of it post war during its colonial wars
