Best World war two warships?

renrich · Sep 1, 2009

It was a tragedy that Hood was matched against Bismarck and her armor proved inadequate. An interesting point to me to ponder is comparing the fate of the British BCs, Invincible, Indefatigable, Queen Mary, Hood and the Japanese BCs which were similar to Tiger. The British BCs all blew up at once while Hiei took a lot of punishment from surface guns and aerial attack before succumbing and Kirishima was hit some 30 times by 16 inch and 5 inch shells before eventually sinking. Kirishima was engaged at relatively close range where the incoming was flat trajectory and so was Hiei during the night fight and the max size shell she was hit by was 8 inch. Perhaps that explains it.

PJay · Sep 2, 2009

Off Topic for WW2 ships...The 'Invincible's actually had a gap in the deck armour amidships for a gangway. OK the chance of a shell plunging exactly there were low...

iat_butcher · Oct 11, 2009

Hi all I'm new here but I have been reading this and was thinking about my favored ships.

Battleship- nelson, I know it is not the best but if you look at the Hood you see that it sunk because it rushed in to the Bismarck and only could use it front turrets. An also only front turret means you have a smaller side to be hit on.

Aircraft carrier- Shinano, it may not have had the best crew but it was the first real super carrier.

Heavy cruiser- panzerswift (is a pocket battleship I know) was considered a cruiser.

Light cruiser- kuma class, especially kitakami in the early days. It had 40 torpedo tubes. Made in 1920 and was active in the night raids (it is the ship I love the most of all ships.

Destroyer- shimikaza, it had good guns and torpedo's.

Frigate- the germane snell boot. 2 torpedo launchers 2 turrets.

I'm surprised that no one spoke about the kitakami, It rock's!! (for me it does because it is a transport ship)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 12, 2009

iat_butcher said:
Heavy cruiser- panzerswift (is a pocket battleship I know) was considered a cruiser.

Which Panzerschiff are you referring to?

Light cruiser- kuma class, especially kitakami in the early days. It had 40 torpedo tubes. Made in 1920 and was active in the night raids (it is the ship I love the most of all ships.

You had the Deutschland Class (Deutschland (later called theLützow), Admiral Scheer, and Admiral Graf Spee), and you had the heavy cruiser class Admiral Hipper (Admiral Hipper, Blücher, Prinz Eugen and Seydlitz)

iat_butcher said:
Frigate- the germane snell boot. 2 torpedo launchers 2 turrets.

Are you referring to the E-Boot? I only ask because you use the term schnell boot. They were torpedo boats such as the the PT Boats and not frigates.

The other type of "schnell boot" was the Elbing Class, Raubtier Class, Type 1935 and Type 1937 class torpedo boats. They too however were all more like destroyers than frigates.

Glider · Oct 12, 2009

iat_butcher said:
Hi all I'm new here but I have been reading this and was thinking about my favored ships.

Battleship- nelson, I know it is not the best but if you look at the Hood you see that it sunk because it rushed in to the Bismarck and only could use it front turrets. An also only front turret means you have a smaller side to be hit on.)

A good choice for the best pre war battleship but not up to the later vessels.

Aircraft carrier- Shinano, it may not have had the best crew but it was the first real super carrier.

Again a good choice but in the view of most comes second to the Essex, if only for their better AA.

Heavy cruiser- panzerswift (is a pocket battleship I know) was considered a cruiser.)

Assuming that you are talking about the Pocket Battleship I would agree with you if we have to leave out AA guns.

Light cruiser- kuma class, especially kitakami in the early days. It had 40 torpedo tubes. Made in 1920 and was active in the night raids (it is the ship I love the most of all ships.

Must dasagree totally. Too small, too fragile, too few guns and didn't achieve anything with that payload. She was if I remember correctly converted mid war to this configuration and by then the allies had a fair amount of radar which went a long way to evening up the odds.

Destroyer- shimikaza, it had good guns and torpedo's.

Again a good choice if you leave out AA weapons and radars but in the real world you could not and the Fletcher was a better choice.

Frigate- the germane snell boot. 2 torpedo launchers 2 turrets.

I admit you have me there as I cannot work out what you are talking about.

timshatz · Oct 12, 2009

Somebody oughta PM Delc on this one. He'd be all over it.

My understanding is the Hiei's armor was upgraded to BB standards between the wars.

The three BCs that blew up at Jutland were all slugging it out with German BCs when they went bang. Not BBs. There were BBs in around but they had not yet gotten into the that fight. Well, not affecting the British BCs anyway. German BCs took down the British BCs at Jutland, not BBs. The British BCs blew because of poor ammo management and the volitility of their powerder. The Germans had had a similar problem but a fight after a BC raid on the British Coast (where the Seyditz lost a turret and almost the ship to the same problem) taught them Ammo Management ("Ordanance instructions are written in blood"). Their powder was less volitale from the start.

The Hood had been upgraded in a few spots, but not continuously. Not sure of the details, but the round that put her under seems to have been a freak shot. In the parliance of sport, the round had eyes. It went on a somewhat ecclectic route to the the secondary battery magazines. They detonated and took the mains up. Given the route it took (past or around armor plate), it entirely possible that a round from the Prince Eugen could've done it. But the Hood had just been on the receiving end of a Bismark Salvo when she blew so the odds are very good it was the Bismark that fired the shot.

Another point, the wreckage of the Hood is in such a manner that their is credible evidence that her forward magazines blew up also. The final shot, where the forward turret fired as the ship sank, could've been venting from that event instead of an actual salvo.

renrich · Oct 12, 2009

Actually the German BCs at Jutland had the same size guns as the German BBs, 11 and 12 inch. However the Invincible might have gotten hit by BB guns. Hiei and Kirishima as well as Haruna and Kongo were all remodeled between wars but so was Hood. In another thread I mentioned how fate seemed to step in on Queen Mary at Jutland because the other "Cats" were hit many times but were still full of fight. Actually the German BCs had their fighting qualities diminished by the damage more than the British BCs, except for the ones that blew up. Just found my reference on Jutland. Von Der Tann was hit by 4 heavy shells and all of her main battery was out of action. Derrflinger was hit by 17 heavy and 9 medium and small shells and most of her guns were out of action. Seydlitz was hit by 21 heavy and 2 medium and light shells and a torpedo and was barely afloat. Lutzow was hit by 21 heavy shells and sank. Moltke was hit by 4 heavy shells and her fighting qualities were not diminished. Lion was hit by 12 heavy shells and her q turret was destroyed but she lost no speed. Tiger was hit by 17 heavy shells and 4 medium and light shells and her fighting qualities were undiminished. Princess Royal was hit by 9 heavy shells and her fighting qualities were undiminished and New Zealand was barely scratched because, I guess, of the Maori skirt.

timshatz · Oct 13, 2009

renrich said:
I guess, of the Maori skirt.

Ren, do you know if there are any pics out there of the Captian of the NZ wearing that skirt? Always wanted to see him the full regailia but never have.

renrich · Oct 13, 2009

Tim, I believe I saw a photo of him with skirt on one time but can't remember where. It may have been in Life magazine.

vikingBerserker · Oct 13, 2009

He wore that shirt into combat??

parsifal · Oct 14, 2009

There are two things that make the Kiwis unique....their skirts and their desire for sheep.....

renrich · Oct 14, 2009

Absolutely he wore the skirt on the bridge of New Zealand at Jutland. The Maoris had bestowed the skirt on him and it was supposed to, I think, bring luck or protect the wearer and New Zealand came through almost unscathed, the only BC on either side to do so.

voldemort · Nov 18, 2009

Carrier: Essex class CV
Battleship: Yamato class (Yamato and Musashi)
Battle Cruiser: Scharnhorst
Heavy Cruiser: Norfolk
Light Cruiser: HMS Belfast
Destroyers: Fletcher Class USN Destroyers
Submarines: Type XXI U-Boote (even not in numbers)
MTB/Patrol: S-Boote (late types)

Amsel · Nov 18, 2009

I like your choices.

vikingBerserker · Nov 18, 2009

Pretty dead on IMHO

tomo pauk · Nov 19, 2009

Germans would argue that Scharnhorst class ships are batteships, not battlecruisers. Sorry for nitpicking

parsifal · Nov 19, 2009

Some sources I have read (particularly Frame) rate the Scharnhorst as the worst Battlecruisers fieded by any nation.

For example, the Japanese Kirishima Class were originally rated as Battleships, but after their final refits were rated as Battlecruisers. With thei 8 14 inch guns I think they would have easily overpowered the Scharnhorsts with their nine 11" guns. On the other the hand the Scharnhorsts were superior in sped and endurance, and were simply a more modern design

The Scharnhorsts were the lightest armed capital ships of any navy at that time 9unless one includes heavy cruisers). They were capable ships, with exceptionally high speed, and for their size were relatively well protected. But like all warship design they were a series of compromises, and suffered badly in that development process from political intervention

I would even go so far as to argue the French Dunkerque class were superior, and wouild definately rate the Hood as superior, notwithstanding its lack of refit

Glider · Nov 20, 2009

The Dunkerque and the Scharnhorst are and will always be an interesting match. The Schornhorst has the better protection but the Dunkerque has the better weapons. The unknown question would be if the 13in guns would be enough to seriously compromise the german armour.

My guess and it is only a guess is that the Scharnhorst would have the advantage as she was without doubt able to take damage. French ships had a reputation for being fragile.

What is certain is that if yu replace the 9 x 11in with 6 x 15in any questions go away.

Vincenzo · Nov 20, 2009

afaik no battlecruiser there are after WWI, also the old BC, as Hood and Kongo, are no more considered BC but BB.
the concept of BC, a ship with around same weapon of a BB and around the speed of cruiser was passed when the new BB get high speed.

tomo pauk · Nov 20, 2009

parsifal said:
Some sources I have read (particularly Frame) rate the Scharnhorst as the worst Battlecruisers fieded by any nation.

I would even go so far as to argue the French Dunkerque class were superior, and wouild definately rate the Hood as superior, notwithstanding its lack of refit

The crews of 4 RN battlecruisers that experienced wholesale explosions hull breaks would bitterly argue against rating Scharnhorst as a worst Battlecruiser.

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