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Just a few observations.
1.Not sure why you felt it important to include the La7 - was much lighter than La5... No German La7 test?
3. Spit was not at 25lbs boost - at 1690hp it would be 16 or 18lbs), but I am not sure how much that would effect the test (alt dependant). More power would help turn rate.
IMHO, Yak3 @ 17sec might have been large radius and fast turn rate, this might explain why it did well even with higher wingloading (did anyone mention taper angle of wing plan shape?). R value would have been nice to know but russkies left this out. Did Yak3 have as small an R value as XI? We just don't know...
btw, slats do deploy one before another on 109 and that unequal deployment WAS disconserting to pilots (and still was pressent on Buchon ie G2 wing).
Tactical advantage, surprise, numerical superiority, aggressiveness, physical conditioning, gunnery skills and pure guts wins fights. Its simply utter horsecrap to cling to the warped belief that one or another performance factor is the magical formula to attain kills.
you don't believe in Einstein's thories as to the 4th dimension then?
Kurfurst posted:
The above has gotten you kicked off a boeard or two hasn't it Kurfurst.
Lots of new information in Mike William's site and Kurfust's site. Both need a pat on the back, BUT both are definitely done by individuals that have a biased outlook/interpretation of the documents and data they've found.
Best to just peruse their document finding skills and make your own decisions with what is original source from test flights.
Calculated figures mean nothing.
Myself I'll wait for Olivier's book on the 109 series thank you very much.
Not when it comes to aerial combat...
Has he ever flown a high performance aircraft?Olivier Lefebrve obviously possess far more material and knowladge on the subject than I can ever hope for.
Has he ever flown a high performance aircraft?
How is this for a tweak on 3 dimensional Spatial OrientationBravo!
Boys and girls here's the phrase for the day -
T H R E E - D I M E N S I O N A L
Has he ever flown a high performance aircraft?
Thanks!How is this for a tweak on 3 dimensional Spatial Orientation
I've gone on the site - he does have a lot of knowledge and documents. Again, it's comical to see hairs split with regards to this subject matter when many so called experts have never flown a real aircraft, let alone a high performance aircraft.I don't know, maybe you should ask him at allaboutwarfare.com ! What I know however, that he measures the documents he collected on aviation and in particular the 109 in tons, rather than pages. No kidding.
Really funny.
Especially when the test says in the first paragraph of pg 4: "performance at this altitude at about 28 to 30 s for the stationary full circle without altitude change. This is equivalent to a shortest time for a full circle at emergency power and 1000 m of about 25 s."
A 25 second turn at 1000m would put the tested aircraft some 6 seconds, or 31.5%, behind the Russian tests for 19 sec for the same type of aircraft.
The report also mentions the "the aforementioned [troublesome] turning characteristics of the La 5", which you can draw what you will from.
According to Soviet tests the FW-190A8 could do a 360 degree turn in 21-22 seconds. So this leaves me wondering how accurate this assesment of the La-5FN really is, when the report also states that "The times for a full circle are better than those of the Fw-190A8 at ground level and worse than those of the Bf-109"
Inconsistencies stacked up on inconsistencies. It all depends on how you want to interpret the data...
Max, you're probably very correct and his book sounds worth-wild - my point is I have seen dozens and dozens of folks attempting to argue aircraft performance based on performance charts, sometimes not fully understanding what they are talking (but acting like and "expert") about because they have never used those charts in conjunction with operating a real aircraft. I have flown jets (L-29s and L-39s to name a few) and there are at least a half dozen performance charts within their flight manual. For the most part you only need to extrapolate a small segment of that information to safely operate the aircraft - the same holds true for WW2 aircraft.Flyboy,
Olivier's book will totally be one you will want. He's straightened out quite a few folks
posting some wrong thoughts about the 109. He is the most unbiased person I've seen
posting on boards. Want to learn some good tidbits, then visit the boards he posts on
and search for his posts. They all got different tidbits in them. I could put a nice little
paperback together just from his postings.
Kurfurst,
You accuse alot of folks of being someone they aren't. I'd suggest taking a big breath
and let it out slowly. I'm giving you a job well done on your website, but I don't agree
with some of the deductions that you come up with. I do no different to Mike Williams and
his website.
BTW I have never been kicked off one board yet and don't plan to. Please you've done
good, but you need to calm down and not be so bitter in life. It's nice to see you've eliminated
the webpage where you trash on Mike. A good start..now just let it go and be happy.
Regards,
the La-5FN in question was in excellent condition.
Soren,
Well, lets see what you have found...
109G turns "better" than La5FN in German test.
Spitfire LF IX turns slightly faster than La5FN in Soviet test.
109G does not turn as fast as La5FN in Soviet test (but 109G has wing gondolas? source? - I am not saying it didn't I just want source).
That is interesting, you have found something new. It is not conclusive but still interesting. It is a "this is to that so that is to this" equivocation.
Just a few observations.
1.Not sure why you felt it important to include the La7 - was much lighter than La5... No German La7 test?
2.Not sure why you omitted the Vb... It turns not as fast as XI in Soviet test (but out turns IX in radius in RAE tests) it would have made your case look better in some ways...
3. Spit was not at 25lbs boost - at 1690hp it would be 16 or 18lbs), but I am not sure how much that would effect the test (alt dependant). More power would help turn rate.
4. No quantitative values on the German test, we do not know how much better the G was over the La5FN.
5. Still no LF XI vs 109G/F direct comparison. Two tests under different protocol - but I like the idea of comparing them.
6. Soviet test was of turn speed through 360degrees, no radius quantified. Was German test concluded based on radius and not turn rate?
IMHO, Yak3 @ 17sec might have been large radius and fast turn rate, this might explain why it did well even with higher wingloading (did anyone mention taper angle of wing plan shape?). R value would have been nice to know but russkies left this out. Did Yak3 have as small an R value as XI? We just don't know...
btw, slats do deploy one before another on 109 and that unequal deployment WAS disconserting to pilots (and still was pressent on Buchon ie G2 wing). I did say it was designed that way did I not? Yes I understand why the slats deploy one before the other - ment to delay (or tame) the stall, keep outboard of wing flying... My father (tech sgt) did mantainance on F-86 in USAF which had slats, and did big wing retrofits during Korea (first to get rid of slats then I think they fitted them again on bigger wing).