Carriers!!

[syscom3]

Overlord and Iceberg were two different operations. What workded for Overlord wouldnt work for Iceberg, and vice versa.

Iceberg needed far more combat vessels and most importantly, aircraft carriers.

The far shorter distances between England and Normandy meant smaller vessels could be used unlike Okinawa, where all the amphib vessels had to be seagoing.

The shorter distances for the channel also meant many vessels could make multiple sorties per day. In Okinawa, it was a round trip distance of 2 weeks.

I think were comparing apples to oranges.

 

[CurzonDax]

Agreed. Though exellent discussion, lots of fun.

:{)

 

[CurzonDax]

And later the Royal Navy? The RN kept the CBI supplied from day one. There's no "later" about it. It's a long way from Portsmouth to Calcutta, even longer to Rangoon or Singapore.

You rant on and on, but you do not provide evidence that ICEBURG was bigger than NEPTUNE. Overall, OVERLORD involved a lot more men than ICEBURG - the OVERLORD operation ended up landing millions into France, and it wasn't just from the sea.

OVERLORD, and the whole operation in Europe was a logistical miracle. Keeping forces supplied of fuel and ammo across an awful stretch of water, and over land that had been demolished by your own airforce. It's a miracle that the assault got off in the first place.

"Later" was a bad choice or wording. By later I meant the RN involvement in carrier ops in the Pacific from 44 in conjunction with the USN. I know they could refuel at sea, I just meant when and where.

:{)

 

[MP-Willow]

Plan_D, I agree that once in Normandy the place was a mess and the men who ran that Red Ball Express were very brave. The engineers did a small work of art to get the railroads up to work, mostly anyway.

As for the CBI, yes the RN was doing it, but they were out of most of the Indian Ocean by 1942. They were on the western side of India so the supplies would come in. But, the "hump runs" were all to China, over and through ocupied space with IJA patrols in the passes the C-87s and C-47s had to fly though.

 

[plan_D]

Pray tell, Willow, if the British merchant vessels did not pass through the Indian Ocean - how were those forces in India supplied? And where did the supplies come from to fly to China ?

 

[syscom3]

The supplies could come from the west, via Auustralia.

 

[plan_D]

Could, but didn't. Since the loss of Singapore made that route unacceptable. The supplies were shipped from Britain through the Suez and through the Indian ocean to India .

 

[CurzonDax]

As much as Plan_D and I have argued, he is right. Australia supplied MacArthur's campaigns.

:{)

 

[syscom3]

Supplies went around Australia and didnt need to tranship through Singapore.

 

[MP-Willow]

Plan_D, I was not saying that the shipping did not get to Indiam, but only to the west coast. That is still a long way to Singapore.

question sence you brought up the Canal, why was it not taken or the locks destroyed by the Axis? The Germans could have done it, like the Royal Navy fliers did to the deep water port in France

 

[plan_D]

The longer the supply lines stay in the water, the more vulnerable they are. The supplies were shipped to India through the Suez Canal, because that was the shortest route.

The reason the Suez Canal was not damaged, is because it was out of range of the Luftwaffe. When it finally came in range, the Luftwaffe had no real chance of attacking it through the DAF. Nor did the Kriegsmarine have any chance at all of knocking the Royal Navy out of the way.

The Med was owned by the British , it's a simple fact of the war. The Italians and Germans tried their best to displace the Royal Navy , but it never happened. Simple naval warfare, aim of the game is to control the sea ... and the Royal Navy did so throughout in the Med. No matter how much was lost, they could not be displaced.

 

[MP-Willow]

Plan_D thanks. I am not that stronge on MTO history but i would think that the Italians would have put up a better fight to push out the RN. Or that the canal would be a top target at the start? Am I just having a big pipe dream or as you say they did try but could never get there

 

[plan_D]

The Italians gave a massive effort to displace the Royal Navy in the Med, but there was no comparison. The Royal Navy out-classed the Italians in skill and equipment, it was a dying battle. Once Taranto had been hit the Italians knew the game was up and retreated their force north, this eased massive amounts of pressure off the Royal Navy.

Despite this Italy destroyed one-fifth of all Royal Navy vessels sunk in World War II. But the air-wing of Italy was a big threat, the SM.79 did a lot of damage.

The Suez Canal was the prime target of the whole North African campaign. But it was out of reach on the ground and in the air. The RAF (DAF) provided an unbreakable barrier for any Axis airforce near the Suez.

 

[MP-Willow]

Thanks Plan_D, I did not know that the RN losses to the Italians were that high! I do like th SM 79, gess I need to read more

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Italians had actually several very good Battleships, but they did not do much. They were sunk I believe at Taranto werent they?

 

[Gnomey]

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3942

True Adler, 3 were hit (all sunk to the bottom) two of which were recommissioned by 1941 and the other was never repaired (see link).

 

[Hunter368]

I am no expert on battleships (like some of you are) but I believe I have read that their battleships were, fast but they (Vittorio Veneto, Caio Duilio and Conte di Cavour) were alittle light on armor. Is that true or no?

 

[Hop]

Supply convoys did not go through the Med, apart from those heading to Malta. The risk of air attack was simply too great.

Supplies for Egypt went the long way, from Britain around Africa and up the Red Sea. Convoys headed to India went around Africa and across the Indian Ocean.

It wasn't until after Italy had surrendered, and Southern Italy occupied, that supply convoys started transiting the Med again. (indeed the easing of the shipping situation was one of the primary reasons for the invasion of Italy in the first place)

 

[plan_D]

If no convoys shipped through the Med , what the hell were the forces in Alexandria doing escorting convoy vessels in the Med. The primary concern of the British was losing the Suez, which would have cut the Empire in two.

 

[Hop]

They were escorting convoys to Malta, and protecting Egypt from the Italian fleet.

The canal was of course important, because supplies used to come up the Red Sea, then through the canal, to reach Egypt. Fuel tankers also used to come from the Gulf region and through the canal to Egypt. But convoys did not run through the Med, apart from those going to Malta.

From British War Economy, one of the post war government publications detailing the British war effort:

"The only merchant ships to use the Mediterranean were the heavily escorted convoys that fought their way to Malta; all other merchantmen bound for the east had to go round the Cape."

Not everything went around the Cape, of course. Aircraft destined for North Africa were usually unloaded at Takoradi in Ghana, and flown about 2000 miles across North Africa to Egypt. Naval vessels frequently went through the Med, but normal convoys were not run through the Med, only those destined for Malta.

That changed later in the war once the threat from bases in North Africa/Italy was eliminated, but I don't know the exact date convoys resumed in the Med.