Casualities in unescorted US heavy bombers by German fighter type

[GrauGeist]

Point taken, but as I understand it? During the period the OP has specified the 30mm M-shell was very much a "new kid on the block", whereas the 20mm variant was in widespread service. If I'm understanding it correctly (and please "straighten me out" me if I'm off base here), the /U4 mod for the 109G-6 was only just entering service and Bf 110G-2/U9's were (likewise), only starting to reach frontline units for operational testing (ZG76) in the Autumn of 1943?

Fully agreed on the "horror show" factor of one vs. the other. The 2cm was bad enough...the 3cm round was absolutely brutal.

Nothing succeeds like excess.

Erich posted a good answer regarding your timeline questions, and there was a great (and very informative) thread a while back regarding the Minengeschoß ammunition, you can find it here: 30mm Mine Shell?

This discussion also reminds me of a photo I posted some time back, showing a T/E attack on a B-17 with a slashing starboard angle:

It was a Me410 A-1/U4 packing a BK5 50mm hunting a B-17G of the 388BG, seen from the radio/nav compartment aboard the B-17 (note the damage on the B-17's wing)...

 

[stona]

Time to pony up for a few books Stona/Steve.

Pick up Theo Boiten's volumes on the Nachtjager while you're at it. Money well spent for a "hardcore airhead"...

I've got all the books you mention and some. I've been collecting them for thirty years. I assume most of us have.
Would anyone be good enough to look up the tactics used by the Sturmgruupen to attack bomber formations. It may have slipped my mind.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

wish our old Sturmgruppen missions 1944 website was still up this would be so much easier to understand.

the four staffel Gruppe, not necessarily in order of who attacks first though the Gruppenkommandeur would usually fill in the cneter spot and everyone would group on him in a wedge the other three staffels were lead mostly by active Staffelkäpitan or the Staffelführer whoever had the most combat experience. the last staffel which formed the higher echelon cover against US escorts would watch for Allied fighters but would go in last against the bombers hoping the high cover Bf 109G's would be in position to cover their rear ends.
th attack started in a wedge shape and then last minute was called line abreast by staffel strength each pilot picking out an individual bomber if he could, knowing full well that if fortunate they would only get one attack from the rear and then have to fly for their lives.

HTH

E ~

 

[stona]

th attack started in a wedge shape and then last minute was called line abreast by staffel strength each pilot picking out an individual bomber if he could, knowing full well that if fortunate they would only get one attack from the rear and then have to fly for their lives.
E ~

Thanks for that. That would be an attack,in a wedge formation,from the rear then. I'm not going mad after all.

It is true that a head on attack became a favoured method for several Luftwaffe units when engaging US bomber formations. I know many of the members posting in this thread are very knowledgeable Luftwaffe buffs. However,many members reading this may not be and to give the impression that all,or even the majority,of attacks were performed in this way is misleading. That is the serious point I was trying to make.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Milosh]

There was a study done by the USAAF that showed the number of attacks and the direction they came from on B-17s and B-24s. Anyone have this?

 

[Erich]

yes from the 1960's this is a 1943 review actually