Could America have won against the rest of the world?

[Glider]

Sys, agree with you on the AAA/Damage Control point. Add to that ASW, Supply, Medical, Engineering, Support and pretty much everything else that a military force needs to stay and fight in the face of a determined enemy. Good planes, good ships, good soliders, lousy support.

Here we are touching on the co-operation between allies issue. The UK had very good damage control methods and procedures and excellent ASW equipment. Its AA equipment was also as good as the best available in the first half of the war and the german twin 37 took some beating in this period. Plus of course British/German surface and Air Warning radar was also ahead of the rest of the world at the time
If the Japs had learnt these lessons and equipped their carriers with these pieces of kit, then they would be a tough nut to crack.

 

[timshatz]

A lot of ifs. True, the US and the UK co-operated relatively well in the war. But we have a common language, common culture, similar legal system...the list goes on. The Japanese, Germans and British had less in common. The Japanese and German navies were patterened after the RN (to some extent) but both were institutions of their countries and not adjuncts of the RN.

The Japanese, German and British militaries had advantages over the US. The MG42 was superiour to the M1918, the Bren better than the BAR, the Zero superior to the Wildcat (one on one). But the interchange of information between these three, while it would've existed, would've been primarily information. Can't see the RN picking up the Zero, Val or Kate (Japanese could hardly make enough for themselves) or the Germans giving their Panzer MK4s to either of the other two. The militaries would've fought primarily on their own.

One point not brought up is the unlikelyness of the Europe uniting in an offensive war. It just hasn't happened in the past and is questionable in the future. A defensive war, maybe. But to put together an Army/Navy/Airforce combination to go 3000 miles to fight an agressive war is just beyond any circumstances in European history. The closest you might get are the Crusades or the Crimean War. Otherwise, it was European fighting European for the last 2,000+ years.

If a colalition did form, one of the first acts the US should do on a diplomatic front would be to work to splinter it. In such an event, time is on the US's side. The longer and more pointless the war, the better the chances that some of the players will get tired of it and go home. Given the inherent mistrust stalking Europe in the middle of last century, it will probably work.

 

[Glider]

A lot of ifs. True, the US and the UK co-operated relatively well in the war. But we have a common language, common culture, similar legal system...the list goes on. The Japanese, Germans and British had less in common. The Japanese and German navies were patterened after the RN (to some extent) but both were institutions of their countries and not adjuncts of the RN.

The Japanese, German and British militaries had advantages over the US. The MG42 was superiour to the M1918, the Bren better than the BAR, the Zero superior to the Wildcat (one on one). But the interchange of information between these three, while it would've existed, would've been primarily information. Can't see the RN picking up the Zero, Val or Kate (Japanese could hardly make enough for themselves) or the Germans giving their Panzer MK4s to either of the other two. The militaries would've fought primarily on their own.

One point not brought up is the unlikelyness of the Europe uniting in an offensive war. It just hasn't happened in the past and is questionable in the future. A defensive war, maybe. But to put together an Army/Navy/Airforce combination to go 3000 miles to fight an agressive war is just beyond any circumstances in European history. The closest you might get are the Crusades or the Crimean War. Otherwise, it was European fighting European for the last 2,000+ years.

If a colalition did form, one of the first acts the US should do on a diplomatic front would be to work to splinter it. In such an event, time is on the US's side. The longer and more pointless the war, the better the chances that some of the players will get tired of it and go home. Given the inherent mistrust stalking Europe in the middle of last century, it will probably work.

I think you will find that nearly all of my postings have been on the basis that whilst they could in theory have co operated they were most unlikely to.

Had to smile at one thing you said. Its hard to imagine the biggest dunderhead in the world turning the Zero down for the Fulmar or the Kate for the Swordfish

 

[timshatz]

I think you will find that nearly all of my postings have been on the basis that whilst they could in theory have co operated they were most unlikely to.

Had to smile at one thing you said. Its hard to imagine the biggest dunderhead in the world turning the Zero down for the Fulmar or the Kate for the Swordfish

Gotcha. I follow you. Do it myself. Just kicking around an idea to see how it sounds in print. Do it myself. Pretty much what this board is all about. What if, how much, how often,... I gotcha. Good points.

The RNAS was in pretty deep doo-doo at the start of WW2. It had nothing that would really hold up with the concurrent Carrier Naval or Land Based Aircraft around the world. The Brits would be fools to turn down the Zero or Kate, very true. I don't think they would've gotten the choice. The Japanese never really got production on those aircraft to levels of something like the 109 or 190. With the losses they took against the US, they came up short in the end. Not ready for a full industrial war, they were more primed for a one or two year war. In that, the Allied powers were very fortunate. If the Japanese had organized their industrial capacity and dedicated resources to support and supply, the Pacific War would've been a longer and bloodier affair. End result would've been the same, but the getting there would've been worse.

 

[Soren]

I'd say the Ki-84 is amongst the best fighters to emerge from WWII..

A co-operation between Europe Asia would also eliminate Japanese problems with AAA defence and damage control. Japanese Military doctrine and training could also be dramatically improved with German help, as-well and perhaps most crucially it would also be much better equipped - imagine USSR, Japanese and British troops all equipped with German MG-42's and Stg.44's ? That'd be a nightmare to meet on the battlefield.

As to the US producing 20 carriers by 1943 - I think not if the EA alliance invades in 1941, and since the EA alliance combined has a much higher production capability it'll also be able to launch more carriers than the US.

 

[Soren]

Oh and about fighting in the mountains of North America, well the EA alliance would have the advantage of having available an Elite special prupose mountain corps, the GebirgsJäger.

 

[Lucky13]

Improved nightfighter equipment for the Russian and Japanese as well I guess.

 

[Lucky13]

If this scenario would have taken place with a invasion of continental US, where would it take place? east coast? west coast or maybe east and west coast at the same time?

Also, didn't or don't US have dedicated mountain troops?

 

[syscom3]

The EA would have a monumental problem producing enough carriers.

1) No standard design

2) Nothing in the works thats comparable to the Essex class carriers already under designed and about to be produced

3) A lack of infastructure to build large numbers of carriers and all the doo dad that go with it.

4) The RN having its documented problems with aircraft and doctrine

5) The IJN having good planes and doctrine, but not having the capacity to build the next generation of aircraft

6) The KM never having operated a carrier period.

7) Lack of the huge shipbuilding capacity needed, in Japan, Germany and Russia.

8 ) Poor "at sea" logistics capabilities

9) In the event of hostilities, all French and English possessions in the Gulf of Mexico area will become US bases. That means no ports to put into for resupply or repair.

10) The IJN/RN/KM all must share their information and capabilities seemlessly and integrate them into new construction. Its obvious that it wouldn't be untill late 1943, early 1944 that the first of their carriers would be ready. In the meantime, the US add's carriers to the fleet at a fast rate beginning in 1943.

Couple that into the requirement that they must close in on the shores to launch their aircraft, and that means they will be exposed to land based aircraft attacks (heavy and medium bombers) for a couple of days before they can even do anything.

 

[Lucky13]

Don't you think that Russia could have pressed ships into action the way they did with tanks and fighters? I don't know what kind of shipbuilding industry they had back then....

 

[timshatz]

One point of cooperation that probably would've happened (popped into my head a short while ago). The Brits would've given the Rolls Royce Merlin to the Japanese (same as the Germans did with the DB600s). That would've spelt very bad news for the USA. Very bad.

 

[timshatz]

Think the East Coast is the best scenario for an attack on the US. But, as with everywhere else, there are a lot of options.

First, think the Europeans need to take down Puerto Rico and the US possessions in the Carribean. Can't have bases operating on your flanks, attacking your lines of communications.

After that, they're going to need a port. Not a huge one, like NYC. Too big and tough to take. More along the lines of Boston, Charleston or Jacksonville. And the port can't be easily isolated (like Miami or any place in New Foundland). It will have to give options for a strategic drive out from the holdings of the port.

The amphib landings are going to have to happen within range of short ranged fighter aircraft. That reduces the number of spots. Now (if Canada is out of it-and I think Canada is going to have to be on one side or the other, too much riding on it- but for now, they are neutral), you are looking at the Bahamas.

The more I think about it, the harder it becomes. Without Canada and with a airfields in range of the beaches, working from an island base, you are stuck with an attack from the Bahamas. That puts you in Florida. However, once you hold a chunk of Florida, you can launch amphib ops in a leap frog fashion heading north and west into the Gulf.

One thing is for sure, you will need to destroy the US Atlantic Fleet (to remove the naval threat) and destroy or capture the Panama Canal (to remove the active threat of the US Pacific Fleet reinforcing or attacking you invasion forces).

On a side note, trying to get all the European Militaries on the same page with signals, operational procedures, doctrinal applications, logistical needs (to put them all under one roof), a unified command structure (who's in charge, probably the Brits, they have the most experience but will the French, Germans and Russians go along with that), differnt operational needs (some ships have a 5000 mile range, others can go for 20000 miles), armament needs (how many different types of rifle caliber ammunition, pistol, cannon, naval cannon and artillery rounds will be needed)is gonna be pure murder. A nervous breakdown waiting to happen for some lucky sole.

The guy who is in charge of the logistics for this thing oughta get the Victoria Cross, Pour le Merit, Order of Lennin and Croix De Guierre before the first shot is even fired!

 

[syscom3]

One point of cooperation that probably would've happened (popped into my head a short while ago). The Brits would've given the Rolls Royce Merlin to the Japanese (same as the Germans did with the DB600s). That would've spelt very bad news for the USA. Very bad.

Why would that be bad?

The US had its R2800's, and eventually the Allison engine worked OK.

 

[syscom3]

Tim, remember the US had an excellent rail network in order to shuffle troops around.

Figure an invasion in 1943 or 1944, then the US not only would have enough "local" troops in which to contain an invasion, but then could use the railroads to move the forces around faster than the EA could land reinforcements.

The east cooast also has numerous geographical barriers that would help the defenders. Large rivers and hilly grounds would slow down the attackers. Regardless of what Soren believes, the EA would need to supply ever increasing numbers of engineering troops and supplies to move out of a beachhead, at the cost of firepower and maneuvering brigades.

Dont count on an EA invasion through the Gulf. Their ships would be under air attack from dozens of airbases and would suffer huge losses. Imagine what would happen to the EA fleets under attack from several B25/A20 skip bomber groups.

 

[102first_hussars]

One point of cooperation that probably would've happened (popped into my head a short while ago). The Brits would've given the Rolls Royce Merlin to the Japanese (same as the Germans did with the DB600s). That would've spelt very bad news for the USA. Very bad.

Pratt and Whitney made really good Engines too you know

Not enough credit is given to them

 

[Lucky13]

The IL-2 with a Merlin etc....?

 

[mkloby]

Regardless of what Soren believes, the EA would need to supply ever increasing numbers of engineering troops and supplies to move out of a beachhead, at the cost of firepower and maneuvering brigades.

What are firepower and maneuver brigades?

 

[pbfoot]

Oh and about fighting in the mountains of North America, well the EA alliance would have the advantage of having available an Elite special prupose mountain corps, the GebirgsJäger.

Be the same thing as the Hessians in 1776 guys who live and work in the woods would eat them for dinner.

 

[timshatz]

The US has the advantages of interior lines of communication, common operational equipment (US has three standard calibers of ammunition for it's aircraft .30,.50 and 20mm, EA are all over the place), ect. No doubt about it. And with the center of the country untouched and no need to produce thousands of merchant ships to project power, the production of aircraft, tanks, trucks, ect would go through the roof. On top of that, as Sys points out, those aircraft would be pounding the beaches on a routine basis.

It would really come down to how far the equipment has to come and how fast you can produce it. I think the US would definitely have a big edge based on the location of the factories and pre-war automobile experience. The EA will have to get their equipment across the Atlantic, the US only has to fly it from Wichita or Dallas over to the depots in Ga or Alabama. That's about a tank of gas for your average fighter or bomber. The EA has to get across the Atlantic. There are bound to be US Subs out there. Even if they don't sink ships, their mere existence requires the EA to move in convoys. This is actually a fairly inefficient way of moving supplies (safe, but only effective in that usually works). Ships load and wait for enough ships to gather for a convoy to sail. That takes time. Battles are lost on such time.

I'm less certain the civilian populace would've been a big threat to the EA. Considering how the Soviets and Nazis handled partisans, I think a few massacres would've kept the locals in line. Much as we don't like to think of it, the threat of reprisals usually works. An active resistance is going to be tough against such people. A passive resistance (intelligence gathering, misdirections and subtle sabotage) is more likely. In fact, it would be probable. There would be very few places the EA could go without a lot of eyes watching them. In this, it would be similar to France in 1944. Want to know where the Germans are, ask the local French. Either they knew or they could call ahead and ask somebody.

P&W was a very good engine. The R-2800 is my favorite (right after the O-360 but that is an old friend). And the Allison is a good engine. But the RR Merlin, coupled with the Spitfire and Mustang was a war winner. The Japanese made some very good airplanes. Match those airframes with an engine as good and reliable as the Merlin and it's trouble for the other side. The allies were lucky the Japanese were a step behind in powerplant development and production (and several steps behind in operation organization). Imagine the KI-84 that Soren alludes to with a Merlin.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oh and about fighting in the mountains of North America, well the EA alliance would have the advantage of having available an Elite special prupose mountain corps, the GebirgsJäger.

I hope they have an elite corp when they meet folks like this...

In the scenerios describe here, it WOULD OF been the only time the criminal element of many US cities would actually made a contribution....