vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Andy, Am I reading your chart correctly, new cases have increased since 10/01 but the number of deaths has remained stable?
Covid-19 reports
- Thread starter Vincenzo
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- #22
Unfortunately people believe that.
How we ever put on a man in the moon, let alone left the 18th century is beyond me.
There are some co-morbidities that put people at increased risk, and we now know what these are. Some are obvious, any problems with the lungs like COPD, some less so, like diabetes.
The debate is not about ignoring people at risk, we know that more than half the deaths (53.7%) in the UK are people aged 80 or over so simply being elderly is also a risk, it's about targeting protection for them. If people at risk have to be quarantined (as they have been since March in most UK Care homes) then that's what has to be done and we have to make provision for that.
The debate is whether we have to quarantine millions of younger people who are at no significant risk, which is what causes the most damage to society and our economies and which is particularly hard for to those less fortunate or less well off. It's not a problem for someone with a salaried job or working in the public sector, whether they go to work, work from home or sit at home the monthly cheque comes in (or the 80% furlough). There are millions not in that position.
It is the self employed and small businesses that are bending the rules because they have to in order to work, pay their rent or mortgages and feed their families. You can make all the rules you want, but people will bend, ignore or break them if they are desperate enough. I know several tradesmen who are working normally. I know a beautician who has been seeing clients, against the rues, at her home, because she would like to keep that home. One of my friends is a certified gas fitter who with his son spent last week installing a new central heating system in a private home. I asked him how he could justify that and he said, 'emergency work'
Here is the problem...
There does not need to be a quarantine or lockdown. People just need to stop being selfish pricks and thinking about nothing but themselves. People just need to stop hanging out in large groups, going to bars, not social distancing, and not wearing masks. If people would stop acting like adolescents and do these things we could get this under control. We need to stop thinking of just ourselves, and start thinking of our communities as a whole. Think of the healthcare workers. Think of the single mother working at the store to feed her two kids, while someone breaths there nasty germs around her, and just came from a gathering of 20 people who may or may not have been infected.
It's not just about the elderly or people at high risk. When someone goes to the grocery store, and does not take the necessary precautions and measures such as wearing mask and keeping six feet from others you are potentially exposing someone else. Someone who may be vulnerable. Someone who may have an elderly or vulnerable person living with them.
By not being responsible and following guidelines proposed by doctors and health officials, you are helping the overburdening of the healthcare system. That effects sick people (other than corona) and others in need of emergency care.
If people would act like adults, do whats right and stop acting like they are some pathetic "woke" patriot fighting the system, we would not have to talk about lockdowns and quarantines.
I will say this one final time, and it is the last thing I will from here on out.
Demanding your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities is not freedom. It's adolescence.
Fact, over and out...
There does not need to be a quarantine or lockdown. People just need to stop being selfish pricks and thinking about nothing but themselves. People just need to stop hanging out in large groups, going to bars, not social distancing, and not wearing masks. If people would stop acting like adolescents and do these things we could get this under control. We need to stop thinking of just ourselves, and start thinking of our communities as a whole. Think of the healthcare workers. Think of the single mother working at the store to feed her two kids, while someone breaths there nasty germs around her, and just came from a gathering of 20 people who may or may not have been infected.
It's not just about the elderly or people at high risk. When someone goes to the grocery store, and does not take the necessary precautions and measures such as wearing mask and keeping six feet from others you are potentially exposing someone else. Someone who may be vulnerable. Someone who may have an elderly or vulnerable person living with them.
By not being responsible and following guidelines proposed by doctors and health officials, you are helping the overburdening of the healthcare system. That effects sick people (other than corona) and others in need of emergency care.
If people would act like adults, do whats right and stop acting like they are some pathetic "woke" patriot fighting the system, we would not have to talk about lockdowns and quarantines.
I will say this one final time, and it is the last thing I will from here on out.
Demanding your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities is not freedom. It's adolescence.
Fact, over and out...
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey Vincenzo,
The population of my home town is just under 5,000.
The population of my home town is just under 5,000.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Couldn't agree more Chris.
No David, deaths have been steadily going up but it's not easily seen because of the scale on the chart. Total deaths as of yesterday is 472 and the number was 271 on Oct 1. Alberta's population is 4.4 million.
No David, deaths have been steadily going up but it's not easily seen because of the scale on the chart. Total deaths as of yesterday is 472 and the number was 271 on Oct 1. Alberta's population is 4.4 million.
This is simply NOT true. The vulnerable and the elderly have to be protected and the only way to do this is for them to minimise contact with the rest of the population. We can call this self-isolation or anything we like, but it IS quarantine.
The sick or anyone with a positive test (which is why testing is so important) also need to self isolate/quarantine. This should be blindingly obvious. There are hundreds of historical precedents for the quarantining of sick people, it was understood in the middle ages, when they had no idea what actually caused an epidemic/pandemic.
The question is really whether millions in the healthy population at large needs to quarantine as is the case in lockdowns. There is no precedent for this. Sensible precautions to mitigate the spread of infection STILL have to be used, but that's not the same as locking everyone in their homes except for essential forays outside, which is the current situation in England and much of the UK.
The reason some people are bending the rues is not because they are fighting the system, it's because they are fighting to maintain their livelihoods, keep their homes, etc. Do you blame them? Even those bending the rules are still generally doing their best, wearing masks, doing the hand washing, keeping distance as much as possible, etc. The resistance to such measures in the UK is still limited to a relative few, the vast majority comply because they should and they understand that it's the right thing to do.
- Thread starter
- #29
In the UK the most common comorbidities in those who succumb to Covid-19 are Hypertensive diseases, diabetes and heart disease, which are also more prevalent in the older people in any population. Hypertension, defined as a recorded blood pressure higher than 140/90 mmHg and no prescribed blood pressure medication, affects about 26% of UK adults and is not just a risk factor for Covid-19 but the other hypertensive diseases which are also comorbidities in deaths from Covid-19.
Canada recently quantified the comorbidities in the first wave Covid-19 deaths there. In descending order these were pneumonia (33%), hypertensive diseases (15%), ischemic heart disease (13%), respiratory failure (13%), renal failure (12%), diabetes (12%), symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified (11%), chronic lower respiratory diseases (10%), nervous system disorders excluding Alzheimer's (8%) and cancer (8%).
Canada recently quantified the comorbidities in the first wave Covid-19 deaths there. In descending order these were pneumonia (33%), hypertensive diseases (15%), ischemic heart disease (13%), respiratory failure (13%), renal failure (12%), diabetes (12%), symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified (11%), chronic lower respiratory diseases (10%), nervous system disorders excluding Alzheimer's (8%) and cancer (8%).
buffnut453
Captain
Sorry, Steve, but I have to disagree with you on this one because it's simply not practical. I'm an at-risk person. I'm over 50 and have an underlying condition but I'm fully employed (thankfully I can work from home most of the time) and, I hope, making a positive contribution to society. How on earth am I supposed to self-isolate with my 16 year-old son going to school and, presumably, my wife running any and all errands outside the home? What if my wife or son contract COVID and then give it to me? Are you suggesting I should have no contact with my wife and son, or are you recommending my entire family stays at home for the entirety of our lives? That's just not practical. It prevents us doing even basic things like shopping, never mind the negative impact on my son's schooling and social development.
We can't divide society into young/old or low-risk/high-risk groups and expect there to be no cross-pollination between the groupings. Yes, young people are at much lower risk of suffering severe symptoms or dying from disease...but what about their teachers, professors, or older people that they work with?
Rather than trying to isolate perceived at-risk people, the population should be working together more to slow down the spread of the disease by doing the basics: wash hands, clean surfaces with disinfectant wipes, maintain social distancing, wear masks. However, there isn't a day that goes by where I see people not doing those things.
Yes, there are some who are bending the rules because they're fighting to maintain livelihoods. However, a great many more are just being selfish, inconsiderate or just ignorant. When people are complaining about wearing masks because they think it infringes their civil rights, you really have to question their priorities...or I do, at least.
With the holiday season coming up, people are doing even more stupid things. In the US, air travel last weekend was only 10% lower than this time last year. That's not due to people fighting for their businesses...it's because people aren't thinking or they selfishly believe that they're somehow more special than everyone else, which gives them the right to ignore advice from healthcare professionals.
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How on earth am I supposed to self-isolate with my 16 year-old son going to school and, presumably, my wife running any and all errands outside the home?
You do what you can to minimise the risk, as you are now. A 16 year old has to go to school and your wife has to do what she wants to do. I don't understand your point, you can't self isolate and nor can they. You can continue what you are doing now. If you have a household emergency requiring professional help what will you do. You call that tradesman and minimise contact and risk.
There ARE people who can quarantine. Elderly or at risk households, many are already self isolating, receiving grocery deliveries from Ocado or similar, or sympathetic relatives. I have an 88 year old neighbour who has probably left his property less than five times since March. Care home and retirement home residents and those in supported living are already in isolation and staff taking at least weekly tests to minimise their risk. These are the REALLY vulnerable groups.
This is what I mean by targeted quarantine.
BTW I took the fuhrerin to the QE hospital in Birmingham today for a routine blood test. Traffic was not discernibly less than a normal week day. The boss was in and out in ten minutes. It's a drop in clinic and she typically has to wait at least half an hour, sometimes longer. She noticed that there was nobody waiting and asked the nurse if they were busy. The nurse said the usual busy clinic had been like the Marie Celeste since the latest lockdown, so there is one thing people are not doing. They are not going to hospital for routine procedures. That will entail a toll which we won't know for months or years. I already posted the Cancer Research UK estimates of extra cancer deaths in the UK due to missed referrals and treatments. There are costs too lockdowns too, and not just economic ones, which my children and grand children will be paying. Their lives will be poorer for decisions made now, and there is a discussion to be had. At the moment any kind of dissenting voice is shouted down by emotional arguments without any logic or testing where the balance should be. This is not healthy.
Great Barrington Declaration (gbdeclaration.org)
I bet most people reading this have never heard of this declaration!
You do what you can to minimise the risk, as you are now. A 16 year old has to go to school and your wife has to do what she wants to do. I don't understand your point, you can't self isolate and nor can they. You can continue what you are doing now. If you have a household emergency requiring professional help what will you do. You call that tradesman and minimise contact and risk.
There ARE people who can quarantine. Elderly or at risk households, many are already self isolating, receiving grocery deliveries from Ocado or similar, or sympathetic relatives. I have an 88 year old neighbour who has probably left his property less than five times since March. Care home and retirement home residents and those in supported living are already in isolation and staff taking at least weekly tests to minimise their risk. These are the REALLY vulnerable groups.
This is what I mean by targeted quarantine.
BTW I took the fuhrerin to the QE hospital in Birmingham today for a routine blood test. Traffic was not discernibly less than a normal week day. The boss was in and out in ten minutes. It's a drop in clinic and she typically has to wait at least half an hour, sometimes longer. She noticed that there was nobody waiting and asked the nurse if they were busy. The nurse said the usual busy clinic had been like the Marie Celeste since the latest lockdown, so there is one thing people are not doing. They are not going to hospital for routine procedures. That will entail a toll which we won't know for months or years. I already posted the Cancer Research UK estimates of extra cancer deaths in the UK due to missed referrals and treatments. There are costs too lockdowns too, and not just economic ones, which my children and grand children will be paying. Their lives will be poorer for decisions made now, and there is a discussion to be had. At the moment any kind of dissenting voice is shouted down by emotional arguments without any logic or testing where the balance should be. This is not healthy.
Great Barrington Declaration (gbdeclaration.org)
I bet most people reading this have never heard of this declaration!
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
This last weekend we lost a dearly loved friend to Covid. She was 65 and with no know health issue as those listed above. She had gone to a funeral, all were wearing mask. She and her husband, age 73, caught the disease. Doug only had flu like symptoms. Two weeks from exposure, Dale was dead. We are heart broken. Be careful!
I was not going to respond anymore to this thread, but after the accusations in that last post...
Bullshit, my entire argument was made with logic and without emotion. Just because you disagree with the view doesn't mean otherwise.
Fact remains if people went about their lives taking the necessary precautions and thinking about more than just themselves, we would not be talking about lockdowns and quarantines. They are not necessary when people take those precautions.
Demanding your rights, without acknowledging your responsibilities is not freedom...
It is adolescence.
Bullshit, my entire argument was made with logic and without emotion. Just because you disagree with the view doesn't mean otherwise.
Fact remains if people went about their lives taking the necessary precautions and thinking about more than just themselves, we would not be talking about lockdowns and quarantines. They are not necessary when people take those precautions.
Demanding your rights, without acknowledging your responsibilities is not freedom...
It is adolescence.
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I am sorry for your loss.
These are very sad times indeed. This will be a dark Christmas for the families of 300,000+ American's. I cannot help but think that it could have been not as bad had we tackled this pandemic differently.
buffnut453
Captain
I can do all within my power to minimize my risk...and then some asymptomatic yahoo with an anti-mask bee in his/her bonnet coughs near me and I'm scuppered.
All I'm saying is that the wider population all needs to do its part...and do more of its part than it is doing right now. That process hasn't been helped by various messages by various individuals that "the young aren't affected". I know that's not the reality but it's often how it gets perceived, hence the ridiculous scenes in Florida during spring break...and nobody knows the impact of those events because there was no track-and-trace in place. And yet Americans wonder how we got to 12 million cases and 260K deaths.
The frustrating part is that vaccines are clearly going to be available soon and yet, rather than just put off plans until the vaccine is readily available, people are pressing ahead and continuing to spread the disease regardless of the consequences.
buffnut453
Captain
Sorry but it's not that mature...it's an infantile temper tantrum.
Trust me I cannot have a conversation without some American with their veins popping out of their head screaming "Go ahead and wear a mask if you want to live in fear! You can't make me!" It's amazing how ridiculous we look as a county. We used to be a county that came together when things got tough, now we let political parties and leaders divide us and make us hate each other.
And that is the attitude that keeps this pandemic raging out of control. It's not limited to masks either. It's the entire thought process. People don't get it. There is no need for total quarantine or lockdowns. The economy cannot handle it, and people will lose their jobs and livelihoods. But if we don't want a total lockdown then we have to do the right things, and think about society as a whole. We need to protect our children at school. We need to protect our store workers. We need to protect our plant workers. We need to protect our food service workers. We need to protect our first responders. WE NEED TO PROTECT EACH OTHER. Wear a mask when in public. Wash your hands. Stay home when you are not feeling well. Social distance and avoid large gatherings. That does not mean you have to sit in your house isolated, have no life or work. Just stay away from unnecessary things that are not needed and put people at risk.
My oldest has been home from school for the last 2 weeks because kids in his class keep keep testing positive. Each one of those kids has a mother and a father, as well as elderly grandparents, and some possibly have high risk family members somewhere in their lives. If we do not take the necessary precautions or this virus seriously how do we expect our kids to learn?
How do we expect our economies to recover when entire workforces are being sent home. Parts of my company shut down every two weeks because dozens of employees become sick because they refuse to take the virus seriously. "I'm only 25. This virus cannot hurt me." And they hang out at bars and refuse to wear a mask. Do you think the company's profits are not being hurt? Got news for you. Two weeks can cost my company hundreds of millions of dollars. When the company lays off 30,000 employees because it cannot pay the wages because production has been shut down.
So the "It only effects the old and vulnerable" is bullshit. It effects everyone.
If people just put their big boy britches on, and do the right things. Then we don't need lockdowns and quarantines. How anyone thinks life can go on even remotely like normal, or that the economy will recover when hospitals are overburdened and workplaces are riddled with infected people is beyond me. That or they are sticking their head in the sand.
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And that is my final word. I'm not going to argue on the internet or ruin friendships (or allow them to ruin them).
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
When people start complaining of wearing masks I bring up seat belts, I find the stuttering quite humorous.
