Did the RN win the Battle of Britain?

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the weather was soon turning against the Germans by this point too remember, land anytime in september/october and boy you'll have problems re-supplying in the winter months, here's a very informative link about the plane for the invasion, if everything they say here's true then the RN wouldn't even need to bother, i strongly suggest you read this............

Operation Sealion

 

[Hunter368]

What people obviously forget is that Germany at this time was preparing for an even larger objective - the invasion of Russia. Had Hitler concentrated on Britain alone, waiting with the overly large objective of an invasion of Russia, an invasion of Britain, if you ask me, was entirely plausible.

I'll be back later to address the rest.

Soren,


Just a comment on this one. Do you think that Russia would not of attacked German before the time German armed forces were prepared to attack UK or shortly after Germany attacked UK? It would of taken German a long time to prepare for war with UK if they really were going to have a chance of winning it. During that time both UK and Russia would of built that armed forces up also.

Sure they gave a half hearted (meaning lack of intell from the Upper levels of German intell should of told the true fighter levels and production of UK, plus the lack of naval ability to actually pull off the invasion) in the BoB. But really they had no chance of winning that battle using the tools they had at the time.

They needed a better prepared AF and a better navy to be able to pull it off. Plus if UK saw Germany building those forces up she would of also built up her forces at the same time. UK was building more planes per month than Germany in BoB! Germany was losing more pilots than UK also during BoB! Germany was not prepared for a long war across the channel with UK. Germany was prepared for fast wars not long drawn out battles.

If UK was connected to mainland than yes Germany would of beaten her quickly. (fast war)....but UK is not connected to the mainland (slow war).

It would of taken a long long time for Germany to out build UK to the point where Germany was truly prepared to invade successfully UK. Russia during this time would not of just sat there watching and doing nothing. There is many who believe that Russia was going to invade Germany in the not to distant future after 1941. Russia would of taken up arms vs German at some point IMHO. When who knows now.

All I am saying is you can't just look at UK and Germany and ignore all the other factors involved. Unless we are talking totally about fantasy world here we have to consider all other factors at the same time.

 

[syscom3]

A German invasion of Britain was covered in detail on another thread.

If it occured, it would have failed bigtime. The KM didnt have the specialized landing craft, amphib vessels AND DOCTRINE FOR THEIR USE that would have been needed to provide logistics support.

Just a slight daily attrition done on the landing barges by the RN and RAF would have been a very serious concern for the invading troops.

Quiet simply, even if a couple of divisions got ashore, they would have withered on the vine within a couple of days from lack of support.

 

[Hunter368]

A German invasion of Britain was covered in detail on another thread.

If it occured, it would have failed bigtime. The KM didnt have the specialized landing craft, amphib vessels AND DOCTRINE FOR THEIR USE that would have been needed to provide logistics support.

Just a slight daily attrition done on the landing barges by the RN and RAF would have been a very serious concern for the invading troops.

Quiet simply, even if a couple of divisions got ashore, they would have withered on the vine within a couple of days from lack of support.

100% agreed. German could not of been much more unprepared to invade UK, lol. She had no hope of really successfully invading AND supporting those troops for any amount of time. No hope.

 

[Soren]

People, remember a successful invasion does not mean a Victory. What this discussion is about is whether a partially sucessful invasion of Britain was possible, and it certainly was if Operation Barbarossa had been cancelled in favour of it.

If it occured, it would have failed bigtime. The KM didnt have the specialized landing craft, amphib vessels AND DOCTRINE FOR THEIR USE that would have been needed to provide logistics support.

Like the Normandy landings an invasion of Britain could be prepared for, esp. if Operation Barbarossa was cancelled, then Germany would suddenly have 3.3 million men at its disposal and lots more material than they ever had during the BoB. The barges necessary to carry the men across the channel could be build within months, it wasn't a design-obstical, and the logistics would've been taken care of as-well if Hitler would've allowed his General's to do so. - one of Hitlers many mistakes was not listening to his General's and their logistical plans, Hitler was for example directly responsible for German soldiers not having any winter-clothes to wear during the Russian winter of 41, eventhough the cloth had already been made and lay ready to be sent in massive piles back home in Germany. (A very deciding factor this would prove!)

Btw, a soldier can carry enough food for himself to survive atleast 10 days without any outside help, and when you're on land finding food won't prove the biggest of your troubles - Soldiers back then were also trained to live off of the land, and many of them were already used to it prior their military carrier.

What I'm trying to point out here is that a invasion of Britain was possible, and also a successful one, but it would require by Hitler, amongst others, that mistakes like not sending the proper material forth eventhough its made and ready, were avoided.


Now about Russia attacking Germany, well that definitely wouldn't have happened for the next 2 to 3 years as Stalin had no interest in attacking his "Ally", and definitely not an ally as strong and technologically advanced as Germany. Also Stalin wasn't even capable of it if he wanted to, as he seriously lacked officers and skilled leaders for him to even make it across the border - Had he tried, he would've lost. Germany's, at the time, recent successes, were also more than enough deturant for Stalin to not even think along those lines !

 

[davparlr]

We are starting to go around in circles, but I mostly agree with Soren. If Germany won the BOB and had abandoned or delayed Barbarossa, it would have brought a massive, well armed, well trained and highly motivated force against Britain. Except for being highly motivated (although demoralized by the loss of the BOB) Britain could not be ready to match this force. I believe that, at that time, Britain was still in a desparate attempt to catch up. It was producing more planes but it started off at a four to one disadvantage. The Luftwaffe would have cordoned off the airspace around the beaches and approaches to the beaches. I also do not believe that Stalin was in any position to invade Germany and would have been happy to watch German and British forces expend themselves against each other.

In the end, It would have failed. Hitler would not prepare properly or support efforts that would increase success. Nor were they knowledgeable or trained in land-sea operations. The British are historically great fighters and have never had to defend their homeland. They would tenacously defenders. The Germans and British would expend great resourses and blood in and over the Channel and on the shores of Britain. Stalin would jumping up and down with happiness and planning for his invasion of Europe.

 

[syscom3]

I have to disagree.

There is only a narrow window of opportunity to have a coss channel invasion. If it isnt done within the summer months, then forget it. If Hitler wanted to invade in 1941, it was going to be in the May-Sept time frame.

Britains capability to defeat an invasion improved over time after the "emergency" of the BoB. The RAF was going to be far stronger in both fighters and bombers. The army was going to be fully stocked with armor and artillery. Plus...... the US was vastly increasing its war material production and could readily supply Britain.

The fact that Hitler had 3 million men available to invade means absolutely nothing. The size of your invading army is dictated solely by the size of your logistics base, and in this case, what amphibious transport is available. The thought that Germany would seize harbors and ports intact is madness. Any resupply of the army was going to have to be done by specialized amphib transports, of which none were in the inventory of the KM or Army.

Did they have Higgins boats? DUKW's, LCI's, LST's? Nope. And they would have to be available in numbers. Forget about the "barges" they had. Just sitting ducks in the water, and none of them could handle rough sea's. And if you consider what would happen if only a small percentage of what they had was lost due to attrition, then their logistics capacity would be greatly diminished.

Also think of where the barges would be marshalled. Hundreds of them all docked up and ready to be bombed by the RAF. Maybe even a destroyer or cruiser make a quick night visit and blast them. RN MTB's and patrol boats would also get their sting in and take their toll.

The achillies heel of the Germans was always logistics. The math of resupplying divisions is unavoidable and woe is the army that doesnt have sufficent margins for worst case scenarios.

The simple fact is Germany only had a very narrow opportunity of invading Britain right after Dunkirk, and that was dependant on a lot of things happening right for them. After the summer of 1940, there was no chance for them to invade.

 

[pbfoot]

Just a thought
I think if the Germans put a 5 mile beach head down with airborne and whatever the could get across with their limited naval resources the Luftwaffe probably could maintain air superiority while supplying and reniforcing the beachhead slowly I know if i wanted to control the airspace over the channel I would choose the Luftwaffe over the RAF the Germans had better equipment with the exception of the 109/Spit sawoff
Does anyone know how many fully equipped and trained divisions the UK had in fall of 40 at home

 

[Tony Williams]

Like the Normandy landings an invasion of Britain could be prepared for, esp. if Operation Barbarossa was cancelled, then Germany would suddenly have 3.3 million men at its disposal and lots more material than they ever had during the BoB.

Yes, it could have been prepared for. But look at the enormous scale of the preparations for D-day (in which they STILL only had enough transport to land 5 divisions in the first wave). With no doctrine, no experience, and no suitable amphibious transports even designed, let along built, Germany would have needed a minimum of one year, probably two, to be fully prepared, rehearsed and ready for such a major amphibious operation.

Btw, a soldier can carry enough food for himself to survive atleast 10 days without any outside help, and when you're on land finding food won't prove the biggest of your troubles - Soldiers back then were also trained to live off of the land, and many of them were already used to it prior their military carrier.

One word - ammunition.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[redcoat]

What people obviously forget is that Germany at this time was preparing for an even larger objective - the invasion of Russia. .

While it may have been at the back of Hitlers mind, no preparations for the invasion of the Soviet Union took place until after Operation Sea Lion had been postponed at the end of September

 

[redcoat]

Just a thought
I Does anyone know how many fully equipped and trained divisions the UK had in fall of 40 at home

28 Infantry Divisions and 4 Armoured Brigades

The Infantry divisions were short of heavy weaponry, but that wouldn't have been too much of a disadvantage, because the 9 Infantry divisions the Germans were landing in the first wave had very little heavy equipment landing with them either.

 

[Hunter368]

Syscom I totally agree. The Germans even if we talk about that dream world where Germany never attacked Russia, even if German had 10 million more men it does not matter. Unless they all can swim like fish and carry packs on their backs at the same time it does not matter.

If Germany could of invaded UK they would of, it could not be done.


Soren, this thread is about did the RN win the BoB, not partially successful invasion of Britain was possible. If a invasion is not successful then who cares. Hell for that matter I could invade UK right now if I wanted but does that mean anything....nope. An invasion that is not successful is pointless, for the most part. If we are using your line of thought is 100 German paratroopers landing in UK a successful invasion? An invasion should be considered success if it leads to victory or achieves some REAL tactical goal.

It would of taken Germany years, if they ever could, of out produced UK in planes and ships to allow the invasion to be successful. Under the threat of a REAL invasion UK would of pulled back all or most of her fleet from around the world and brought thousands of troops from her Allies (India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand to name a few) back with her ships. IF Germany was ever able to out produce UK to the point where her AF and Navy could successfully land and resupply the invasion troops it would of been years.

Keep that in mind, years. Even after Germany totally blind sided and achieved massive successes in 41 vs Russia, Russia was able to turn the war around in 2 years and was beating the hell out of the German Armies in the East. From 43 on Germany had no hope what so ever, that was even after Germany dealt blow after blow to Russia in 41.

Had Germany not attacked Russia (fantasy world again) in 41. Russia seeing UK and Germany pummelling each other would of been happy I totally agree. But Stalin was no fool, he would of known when that battle/ war was over he would need a strong army to attack with. Russia could of been ready by 43 b/c it really was even after being pummelled early on by Germany in 41. Had it not been touched in 41 can you possable imagine what the Russian juggernaut would of looked like in 43 having taken no damage what so ever. There would of been some growing pains to be worked out but Russia really did work those pains out while waging war, so of course it could do it in this fantasy world. Those people who disregard out of hand Russia attacking Germany in 43 or later are crazy. Russia would not have sat back and watched Germany get all powerful by taken of all of Europe and UK, Russia would of been very concerned about her own well being and would of acted before it got to that point. They would of attacked Germany in 43 or later when Germany was weakened from war with UK, they would of attacked when it was most in their favor to do so.

Had UK won the war, Germany would of been weaken badly. Stalin would of seen that and taken advantage of that and taken lands from Germany. You think Stalin would of honored that treaty if it was in his advantage to break it? You are joking right? If her weakened state Germany would not of been able to stop Russia and Russia and UK would of been Allies to beat Germany.

Had Germany some how been able to get the upper hand in the battle with UK, then Russia would Allied it self with UK and entered the war. You think Stalin wanted to see Germany controlling all of mainland Europe from Poland in the east all the way west including the UK island? Not in your dreams. If he allowed that to happen then Germany would of been far to powerful to try and defeat once she controlled Europe and UK. Russia would not of been too upset to see UK and Germany pummel each other, but if Germany was getting to close to winning Russia would of invaded Germany from the east. Keep in mind Germany would not of been able to wage this war in 40 or 41 it would of been later and by 43 Russia was near unstoppable.

Hell we are not even included USA in this fantasy world but if we did it would of been even harder for Germany to pull out any kind of win.

Germany had no navy or AF to pull off the invasion successfully. What do I mean by successfully? I mean achieved victory in the invasion that would lead to the defeat of UK. If you call throwing a few hundred or even 1-2 thousand troops on a shore to be slaughtered a successful invasion.....well I am glad you are not my General. (no offense meant)

Ifs and buts don't win wars so its very hard for us all to say this and say that, the best we can do is look at what really happened and make educated guessing what would happen in different scenario. Could Germany EVER out produce UK in planes and ships to make the invasion a success??? How long would of it taken??? If Germany never invaded Russia in 41, what would of Stalin done when he saw one side winning over the other in our alternate BoB we are talking about??? All these things we will never know for sure.....

Oh well there is my $0.02 for the night.

 

[Meteor]

Btw, a soldier can carry enough food for himself to survive atleast 10 days without any outside help, and when you're on land finding food won't prove the biggest of your troubles - Soldiers back then were also trained to live off of the land, and many of them were already used to it prior their military carrier.

Hmm, that may be true but ammunition would be more important than food. What were they to do after 3 days and their ammunition ran out?

Personnaly I cannot conceive of any situation in 1940-41 where the Nazis had a remote chance of conducting a successful invasion taking into account their actual capabilities instead of ones that some here have implied they could just make up as they went along.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Hmm, I seem to recall owning a book which went over this scenario. It was written by a retired British Colonel. It talked about the Germans attacking the RAF earlier and launching Sealion. I'll look for it tonight and tell you guys the title and author.

 

[bomber]

The question of the thread is 'Did the RN win the BoB ?'

So reading this thread there's a conclussion and a varaible...

The variable is what defines a successful German invasion ?

And the conclussion is that as the RAF fought the BoB, they must have won it yet the German will to continue the BoB into a full scale invasion of the UK was erroded through the 'common sence' that because of multiple factors the invasion was simply not credible..
these factors being but not exclussive to
A)Air superiority
B)Time - Build up of the UK ability to fight a war
C)Equipment and training
D)Logistics/resupply
E)The Channel condition / weather
F)Home defense (4 - 1 lose rate)
G)UK Geology
H)The resulting effects a long drawn out BoB has with Russian capabilty to fight a war.

When you look at it the same things that hinders Germany from invading the UK also makes them safe from the UK... So if you can say to yourself 'these guys are bottled up, and are of no real harm to us. Lets now go after another target ie Russia' you would do...

Attacking Russia and bottling the UK up was the right thing to do... problem was the Russian campaign stumbled and sucked men away from the bottling up job.. This allowed the UK to first commit to a bombing campaign and latter the invassion...

If Russia had fallen with men then being available in Western Europe to defend against any allied invassion,, it's my belief that Normandy or whereever would have been a complete failure or not even contempated.

Ultimately the BoB and WWII was won by the fact that the Russians existed, and had the potential to wage war...

That threat had to be elimated first, or there could never be a German victory

Simon

 

[Soren]

Hitler's biggest mistake = declaring war on the USA. Without this act of stupidity Germany could've taken Russia and afterwards concentrated on Britain. I still believe though, that the Germans could've conducted a partially successful invasion of Britain had Operation Barbarossa been postponed by 1 - 2 years.

Had it not been touched in 41 can you possable imagine what the Russian juggernaut would of looked like in 43 having taken no damage what so ever.

Like a mess ! It was Germany's attack on Russia which had Stalin make a change of heart, cause up until that point Stalin had done nothing but deteriorate his army's ability to fight. Without Op. Barbarossa in 41 a Soviet invasion of Germany wasn't possible until at least 1944, and even then succes was very much not guaranteed, infact it was mostly doomed to fail.

Just take a look at how the Russians did on the offensive against the Finnish which didn't even have tanks !

Keep that in mind, years. Even after Germany totally blind sided and achieved massive successes in 41 vs Russia, Russia was able to turn the war around in 2 years and was beating the hell out of the German Armies in the East. From 43 on Germany had no hope what so ever, that was even after Germany dealt blow after blow to Russia in 41

Russia certainly didn't turn the war around, without the western Allies Russia was doomed to lose, the war was turned around by the US involvement. And at no point did the Russians beat the crap out of the Germans, the Germans did infact keep on beating the crap out of the Russians all the way back to Berlin ! 13.6 million Russian soldiers lost their lives fighting the Germans, 13.6 million ! Germany in all lost 3.25 million soldiers, approx. 75% fell in Russia.

Let us not forget on how many fronts the Germans were fighting, and all because Hitler was in too much of a hurry.

 

[Tony Williams]

Russia certainly didn't turn the war around, without the western Allies Russia was doomed to lose, the war was turned around by the US involvement. And at no point did the Russians beat the crap out of the Germans, the Germans did infact keep on beating the crap out of the Russians all the way back to Berlin !

Yep - those Russkies were totally thrashed, Stalin finally had to surrender in the ruins of their last remaining city, Vladivostok. That's why we've had a Nazi Europe these last 60 years!!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Meteor]

Yep - those Russkies were totally thrashed, Stalin finally had to surrender in the ruins of their last remaining city, Vladivostok. That's why we've had a Nazi Europe these last 60 years!!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Well said brother. Hitler and his nazis lost the war because they were mad, plain and simple. If the Nazis kicked Stalins arse all the way to Berlin why did the Soviets win the war, and what has this got to do with the RN winning the BoB?

 

[Meteor]

Russia certainly didn't turn the war around, without the western Allies Russia was doomed to lose, the war was turned around by the US involvement. And at no point did the Russians beat the crap out of the Germans, the Germans did infact keep on beating the crap out of the Russians all the way back to Berlin ! 13.6 million Russian soldiers lost their lives fighting the Germans, 13.6 million ! Germany in all lost 3.25 million soldiers, approx. 75% fell in Russia.

13.6 million soldiers? I would wonder how many of that figure were actually civilians murdered by the Nazis? Then there are the Millions of Soviet prisoners either executed or worked to death by the Nazis!

Anyway, did the nazis lose the war because they failed to knock out the UK?

 

[Gnomey]

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
Status: Independent
Type of Government: Communist
Religion: Atheist
Population: 190,000,000 (1939)
Russians - 100,000,000
Ukrainians - 15,400,000
Uzbekis - 10,000,000
Kazakhs - 5,000,000
Byelorussians - 4,400,000
Azerbaijanis - 2,500,000
Tajiks - 2,500,000
Georgians - 2,100,000
Turkmen - 2,000,000
Jews - 1,907,000
Kyrgyz - 1,500,000
Armenians - 1,300,000
Kabardins - 700,000
Ossetians - 600,000
Chechens - 350,000
Volksdeutsch - 340,000
Tatars - 300,000
Bulgars - 200,000
Greeks - 125,000
Gagaus - 100,000
Others - 38,678,000 Alignment (1939 - 1945):
Neutral
1st Sep 1939 - 22nd Jun 1941
Allied Partner
22nd Jun 1941 - 8th May 1945
Neutral
8th May 1945 - 9th Aug 1945
Allied Partner
9th Aug 1945 - 2nd Sep 1945 Casualties (1941 - 1945):
Soldiers (Allied) - 13,300,000 Killed
Soldiers (Axis) - 408,000 Killed
Civilians - 6,500,000 Killed
Jews - 1,000,000 Killed

Germany
Status: Independent
Type of Government: Dictatorship
Religion: Christian
Population: 73,000,000 (1938)
Germans - 70,990,000
Poles - 1,000,000
Jews - 707,000
Russians - 200,000
Danes - 30,000
Gypsies - 28,000
Wends - 20,000
Frisians - 15,000
Lithuanians - 10,000 Alignment (1939 - 1945):
Axis Partner
1st Sep 1939 - 8th May 1945 Casualties (1939 - 1945):
Soldiers (Axis) - 3,350,000 Killed
Civilians - 3,043,000 Killed
Jews - 205,500 Killed
Gypsies - 20,000 Killed

Germany included for comparison. Source: World War 2 Casualties - Worldwar-2.net