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So where do we disagree Adler ??
I mentioned airbases in Siberia - Alaska is mountain terrain so tanks arent going to prove effective there before any roads are built, therefore Alaska needed to be taken with airpower. The Germans would have to drop the Gebirgs Fallschirm Jägers over Alaska to establish a strong foothold in the area, but they would need constant airsupport as the US Canadian airforce would swarm the area with a/c.
Soren said:Anyway like I said, Hitler most likely wouldn't want to invade the US until he had Africa Asia in his hands.
1. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat Russia.
2. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat England.
3. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat the US.
4. I believe that the US played a much larger role than you think.
US production helped keep Russia alive.
5. Germany never would have made it to Alaska, even if Russia was gone and even if they had wanted to.
6. I can go on and on....
You realize how many Mountain and Paratroopers you are talking about. Alaska is larger than all of Western Europe. A few Brigages or even a Division is not going to hold Alaska....
Alaska would have been a hopeless cause.
Do you really think this would have been possible?
Now thats pretty far fetched considering how close the Germans actually came to defeat the Russians WITHOUT winterclothing.
Soren" said:With the USSR down it wouldn't take long before Britain fell. The odds would simply be too great.
Soren said:The US played a truly major role not until 1944 where the bombing raids were stepped up and the invasion of France began - that was a true turning point, one which again could've been prevented had Hitler allowed his Panzers to engage the Allied invasion earlier.
Soren said:Who sent the Russians most equipment in 1941 ? Wasn't that Britain ?
Soren said:They could've easily made it there, no problem. Establishing a strong foothold and actually pushing forward from there'on would be the challenge.
Soren said:Exactly what would prevent the Germans from reaching Alaska had they conquered the USSR ??
Soren said:Please do...
The US Canada would have to commit with just as big a force atleast Adler, so no it certainly wasn't hopeless. The GebirgsJäger were unrivalled mountain troops and would prove very effective in their area of deployment. Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain aint that difficult, its pushing forward which is hard.
You need to understand that fighting in mountain terrain is much different than in any other type of terrain, progress is slow, cover is plenty and numbers don't mean as much, where'as training and adaptability means nearly everything.
Soren said:Now don't forget that we're not talking about invading the US here!
Soren said:Its actually really scary how close Hitler actually came to conquering the USSR and thereafter Europe, and we can be happy he didn't get that far. With the German loss of the battle of StalinGrad the USSR kept Germany in check and was responsible for soaking up the bulk of the German army strength.
Yes Germany came close and they had a shot but they blew it as early as 1942.
I agree, the first 12 - 18 months were critical (June 1941 - 1942) after this point the Germans had lost any chance to win
*Adler, oh mighty god of knowledge* Should I refer to you as such from now on ? Seems like you want me to...
Soren said:Adler please quit the blanket accusations and patronising of others, its a bad habbit of yours by now.
Soren said:You continually contradict yourself:
1. First you say that Germany couldn't have defeated the USSR.
2. Next you say German could have defeated the USSR in 1942.
3. Now you argue that because the Germans couldn't have defeated the USSR the Germans couldn't hope to get to Alaska.
Huh ??!
Soren said:So who's actually kidding himself ?
Soren said:What I'm saying is the USSR could've been and nearly was defeated by Germany, thats fact, and this was even without the winterclothes (The lack of which cost more German soldiers their lives than you seem aware of, either that or you ignore it) and with the LW dropping the supplies to the Russians.
Soren" said:Had the German soldiers been equipped with winterclothing then StalinGrad would've fallen quickly, and after that the USSR would've crumbled quickly.
Soren said:But thats not all, with the entire Soviet Union in their hands the Germans could set up airbases in Siberia to patrol the Bering strait, while the US Canada would have to rely on airbases on the other side of Alaska as only a few existed in Alaska itself, and those few would undoubtedly become prime targets for the LW.
Soren said:Now if you're already trained in mountain warfare then how come you disagree with me on the subject ?
Soren said:Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain isn't that difficult, its forward progress and advancing against the enemy which is hard. So aerial support would be absolutely essential, both because of the need for supplies and the need for combat assistance in order to advance.
You just can't get by without being calling names and insulting others can you Adler?
Soren said:And I might be a smartass in your eyes (Don't give a rats *ss) but then you're a ignoramus in mine.
Soren said:Where have you been patronizing you ask ???! Well telling me not to kid myself is very patronizing in my opinion! And where exactly have I been patronizing toward you Adler ??? NEVER. The only thing which can be considered patronizing was when I followed your example! I don't call people names either, another bad habbit of yours.
Soren said:Now give it a rest! I'm done with these silly arguments.
Soren said:Back to the subject at hand...
Hitler failed to give all his troops winterclothing, that lost him StalinGrad!
Soren said:Look it up yourself, look up how many German soldiers froze to death because of inadequate clothing. At the beginning of the really freezing period of the Russian winter the Germans controlled approx. 90% of StalinGrad, that was turned around however because the Wehrmacht lacked winterclothing and were running short on supplies because some person couldn't do his job right.
OK, this is what I see for how things unfold in my hypothysis.
The Japanese do attack Pearl Harbor as planned. However, the Germans refuse to declare war on the US, and "bide their time".
I see the following happening immediatly:
1) The US declares the western Atlantic to be a "U-Boat free zone". For the south Atlantic, the US flagged ships and that of its allies not at war with Germany, will run with full lights to indicate their status. Germany attacks these ships at their own risk for the potential of a declaration of war.
2) The US would supply quite a bit of material to the commonwealth, but not on a vast scale.
3) The US would release pilots for volunteer duty for the RAF and RCAF.
4) The War in the Pacific would pretty much unfold as it did in 1942. The US simply didnt have the resources to begin a general offensive untill the summer of 1942. So just because the US had the materials available, it means nothing untill the sea lanes in the Pacific and Australia are developed and secured.
5) The Brits in the CBI might be better off, as material that would have gone to the MTO and ETO in 1942, would end up there instead.
6) The Commonwealth would still defeat the Africa Corps.
7) The Commonwealth would still be able to invade and hold Sicilly, but not untill late 1943.
8 ) The Germans could divert more material to the fight in Russia, but I still dont know if it would be enough to defeat them.
Pbfoot,
Who'ever spoke of an autobahn ??
I mentioned airbases in Siberia - Alaska is mountain terrain so tanks arent going to prove effective there before any roads are built, therefore Alaska needed to be taken with airpower. The Germans would have to drop the Gebirgs Fallschirm Jägers over Alaska to establish a strong foothold in the area, but they would need constant airsupport as the US Canadian airforce would swarm the area with a/c.
Anyway like I said, Hitler most likely wouldn't want to invade the US until he had Africa Asia in his hands.
Okay dokay Adler, then we disagree.
Giving his troops winter clothes in StalinGrad and the Soviet Union would've lost quickly descisively. With the USSR down I can't see what the Allies could've possibly done to stop Hitler from taking Europe. And with the USSR under control Hitler would've also had a gateway into the US via Alaska Canada as-well.
I may be wrong but my vision of the USSR resolve and hatred of Germany would imply 500,000 + Partisans (minimum) harrassing Germany everywhere - including Georgia and Ukraine and Siberia oild fields - tying down a high percentage of German troops just to hold what they had. Look what Tito did in the Balkan's?
But as it was Hitler just made too many mistakes, and that Goering was the leader of the LW didn't help either... (Dropping supplies to the enemy's troops instead of your own doesn't help you win the war)
If you are referring to Stalingrad, and the ring of flak around the city, it's luck that the LW didn't lose all of the transport a/c used to drop supplies.
Hitler started the different conflicts, he is responsible for the war being lost alone. Had he not declared war on the US so soon he could've bought precious time, and had he given his troops winter clothes he would've taken stalingrad and the USSR would've crumbled.