Did the US save Europe in WW2?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

So where do we disagree Adler ??

1. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat Russia.

2. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat England.

3. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat the US.

4. I believe that the US played a much larger role than you think. US production helped keep Russia alive.

5. Germany never would have made it to Alaska, even if Russia was gone and even if they had wanted to.

6. I can go on and on....

 

[Soren]

Pbfoot,

Who'ever spoke of an autobahn ??

I mentioned airbases in Siberia - Alaska is mountain terrain so tanks arent going to prove effective there before any roads are built, therefore Alaska needed to be taken with airpower. The Germans would have to drop the Gebirgs Fallschirm Jägers over Alaska to establish a strong foothold in the area, but they would need constant airsupport as the US Canadian airforce would swarm the area with a/c.

Anyway like I said, Hitler most likely wouldn't want to invade the US until he had Africa Asia in his hands.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I mentioned airbases in Siberia - Alaska is mountain terrain so tanks arent going to prove effective there before any roads are built, therefore Alaska needed to be taken with airpower. The Germans would have to drop the Gebirgs Fallschirm Jägers over Alaska to establish a strong foothold in the area, but they would need constant airsupport as the US Canadian airforce would swarm the area with a/c.

You realize how many Mountain and Paratroopers you are talking about. Alaska is larger than all of Western Europe. A few Brigages or even a Division is not going to hold Alaska....

Alaska would have been a hopeless cause.

Anyway like I said, Hitler most likely wouldn't want to invade the US until he had Africa Asia in his hands.

Do you really think this would have been possible?

 

[Soren]

1. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat Russia.

Now thats pretty far fetched considering how close the Germans actually came to defeat the Russians WITHOUT winterclothing.

2. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat England.

With the USSR down it wouldn't take long before Britain fell. The odds would simply be too great.

3. I dont believe that Germany was going to defeat the US.

Defeat ? I don't believe that either, the US was a long stretch away, it would take enormous amounts of resources to attempt an invasion and Germany would need atleast Africa under its control and have Japan on its side to go through with it. I wouldn't see that happen any time soon after the fall of the USSR, the next struglle obvious being to gain control over Africa.

4. I believe that the US played a much larger role than you think.

The US played a truly major role not until 1944 where the bombing raids were stepped up and the invasion of France began - that was a true turning point, one which again could've been prevented had Hitler allowed his Panzers to engage the Allied invasion earlier.

US production helped keep Russia alive.

Who sent the Russians most equipment in 1941 ? Wasn't that Britain ?

5. Germany never would have made it to Alaska, even if Russia was gone and even if they had wanted to.

They could've easily made it there, no problem. Establishing a strong foothold and actually pushing forward from there'on would be the challenge.

Exactly what would prevent the Germans from reaching Alaska had they conquered the USSR ??

6. I can go on and on....

Please do...

 

[Soren]

You realize how many Mountain and Paratroopers you are talking about. Alaska is larger than all of Western Europe. A few Brigages or even a Division is not going to hold Alaska....

Alaska would have been a hopeless cause.

The US Canada would have to commit with just as big a force atleast Adler, so no it certainly wasn't hopeless. The GebirgsJäger were unrivalled mountain troops and would prove very effective in their area of deployment. Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain aint that difficult, its pushing forward which is hard.

You need to understand that fighting in mountain terrain is much different than in any other type of terrain, progress is slow, cover is plenty and numbers don't mean as much, where'as training and adaptability means nearly everything.

Now don't forget that we're not talking about invading the US here!

Do you really think this would have been possible?

With the USSR conquered with all of its resources and with Japan as Allies, yes I believe that Germany Japan would've taken Asia quite easily, and Africa was the obvious next.


Its actually really scary how close Hitler actually came to conquering the USSR and thereafter Europe, and we can be happy he didn't get that far. With the German loss of the battle of StalinGrad the USSR kept Germany in check and was responsible for soaking up the bulk of the German army strength.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now thats pretty far fetched considering how close the Germans actually came to defeat the Russians WITHOUT winterclothing.

No Soren. Hitler's strategic mistakes took care of all of that. The Germans did not come as close as you think. For every 100 Russians they kill or would or capture another 1000 came along. The Russians did not care about there casualties and in the end they would have worn down the Germans.

With the USSR down it wouldn't take long before Britain fell. The odds would simply be too great.

Again Russia was not going to fall. Germany lost there chance in 1942.

The US played a truly major role not until 1944 where the bombing raids were stepped up and the invasion of France began - that was a true turning point, one which again could've been prevented had Hitler allowed his Panzers to engage the Allied invasion earlier.

Soren do you actually believe that? If you do you need to study your history a bit more. US production and aid was a very big contribution way before 1944.

The US played a major role in N. Africa and Italy before 1944. They played a major role in the anti U Boot war in the N. Atlantic prior to 1944.

Even before they "stepped up" there bombing raids they were still taking the fight to the Germans over Germany during the day. Who else was doing this?

Who sent the Russians most equipment in 1941 ? Wasn't that Britain ?

The US sent aid and supplies to more than just Britian. Come on Soren, dont be naive on this subject just because you dont like to admit the US was doing anything or was able to do anything.

They could've easily made it there, no problem. Establishing a strong foothold and actually pushing forward from there'on would be the challenge.

I beg to difer. Go to Alaska and then come back and report to me on where the Airborne was going to jump into and how the mountain troops were going to get there.

Exactly what would prevent the Germans from reaching Alaska had they conquered the USSR ??

Lets see the Bearing Straight as well as land that is not suitable for airborne operations.

Please do...

Dont be naive Soren. You can go to any thread where you speak of others using "Allied Propaganda" and you are using "German Propaganda" and I am sure you will find a disagreement with me...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The US Canada would have to commit with just as big a force atleast Adler, so no it certainly wasn't hopeless. The GebirgsJäger were unrivalled mountain troops and would prove very effective in their area of deployment. Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain aint that difficult, its pushing forward which is hard.

You need to understand that fighting in mountain terrain is much different than in any other type of terrain, progress is slow, cover is plenty and numbers don't mean as much, where'as training and adaptability means nearly everything.

Soren dont give youself so much credit. I am not that naive. I served in the military and I trained with the German Gebirgsjaeger. I know about Mountain Warfare....

Now don't forget that we're not talking about invading the US here!

Your right because Germany was never going to get to Alaska.

Now don't forget you are the one who brought up the idea!

Its actually really scary how close Hitler actually came to conquering the USSR and thereafter Europe, and we can be happy he didn't get that far. With the German loss of the battle of StalinGrad the USSR kept Germany in check and was responsible for soaking up the bulk of the German army strength.

Soren dont kid yourself. It only looks close on paper.

Yes Germany came close and they had a shot but they blew it as early as 1942.

 

[Freebird]

Yes Germany came close and they had a shot but they blew it as early as 1942.

I agree, the first 12 - 18 months were critical (June 1941 - 1942) after this point the Germans had lost any chance to win

 

[Soren]

*Adler, oh mighty god of knowledge* Should I refer to you as such from now on ? Seems like you want me to...

Adler please quit the blanket accusations and patronising of others, its a bad habbit of yours by now.

You continually contradict yourself:

1. First you say that Germany couldn't have defeated the USSR.

2. Next you say German could have defeated the USSR in 1942.

3. Now you argue that because the Germans couldn't have defeated the USSR the Germans couldn't hope to get to Alaska.

Huh ??!

So who's actually kidding himself ?

What I'm saying is the USSR could've been and nearly was defeated by Germany, thats fact, and this was even without the winterclothes (The lack of which cost more German soldiers their lives than you seem aware of, either that or you ignore it) and with the LW dropping the supplies to the Russians.

Had the German soldiers been equipped with winterclothing then StalinGrad would've fallen quickly, and after that the USSR would've crumbled quickly.

With the USSR conquered Germany would have had enormous amounts of resources at their disposal, and that means lots of new weapons machines would be built without suffering from any lack of the necessary materials later on and spare parts would be plenty. And perhaps most crucially fuel would be abundantly present for the Germans.

But thats not all, with the entire Soviet Union in their hands the Germans could set up airbases in Siberia to patrol the Bering strait, while the US Canada would have to rely on airbases on the other side of Alaska as only a few existed in Alaska itself, and those few would undoubtedly become prime targets for the LW.

Now as to landing troops in Alaska, that wouldn't have been hard, the Germans did after-all manage to land troops on crete, in Norway and in the Italian mountains with ease. There are also plenty of valleys where'in the paratroopers could be dropped.

I see lots of places for para's to be dropped in Alaska:

Now if you're already trained in mountain warfare then how come you disagree with me on the subject ?

Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain isn't that difficult, its forward progress and advancing against the enemy which is hard. So aerial support would be absolutely essential, both because of the need for supplies and the need for combat assistance in order to advance.

So you drop a couple of thousands of paratroopers and have them establish a foothold to which you can deliver supplies and support. The point is but to gain a foothold on mainland Alaska as-well as gaining aircontrol over most of it. With the USSR down the resources would've been there.

 

[Soren]

At any rate this is a what if discussion so its undoubtedly going to be a battle of opinions...

 

[Freebird]

The problem would be logistics. There were almost no roads from Alaska down the coast to Seattle/Vancouver. Would they be supplied by air the whole way? Or would they just sit in Alaska? It would take a lot more than a few 1.000s of troops

 

[syscom3]

I agree, the first 12 - 18 months were critical (June 1941 - 1942) after this point the Germans had lost any chance to win

Without a credible allied (UK and US) threat in 1942 and 1943, the Germans could have deployed enough forces in the East to force the war into a stalemate. Perhaps even to win.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

*Adler, oh mighty god of knowledge* Should I refer to you as such from now on ? Seems like you want me to...

No but you are a smart ass.

Smart ass's dont get anywhere and that why most people dont get along with you!

Adler please quit the blanket accusations and patronising of others, its a bad habbit of yours by now.

Where have I patronized you? Where have I done anything that you have not?

You continually contradict yourself:

1. First you say that Germany couldn't have defeated the USSR.

2. Next you say German could have defeated the USSR in 1942.

3. Now you argue that because the Germans couldn't have defeated the USSR the Germans couldn't hope to get to Alaska.

Huh ??!

Soren go back and read the posts and get rid of your selective hearing and you might actually understand what I am saying.

So who's actually kidding himself ?

You do it all the time....

What I'm saying is the USSR could've been and nearly was defeated by Germany, thats fact, and this was even without the winterclothes (The lack of which cost more German soldiers their lives than you seem aware of, either that or you ignore it) and with the LW dropping the supplies to the Russians.

That I seem aware of?



Thats why I dont enjoy conversations with you. You think you are the all knowing being.

Smart ass!

Had the German soldiers been equipped with winterclothing then StalinGrad would've fallen quickly, and after that the USSR would've crumbled quickly.

No Soren it would not have. Stalingrad was a slaughter house and whether they had winter clothing or not it would not have ended any quicker for either side.

Trust me I know I have talken to my Grandfather about his experiences there. By the way he had full winter clothing. I still have his boots and some of his equipment...

But thats not all, with the entire Soviet Union in their hands the Germans could set up airbases in Siberia to patrol the Bering strait, while the US Canada would have to rely on airbases on the other side of Alaska as only a few existed in Alaska itself, and those few would undoubtedly become prime targets for the LW.

With the great range of most of the Luftwaffe Aircraft. Yeah okay Soren. Alaska is really fricken big.

[qutoe="Soren"]Now as to landing troops in Alaska, that wouldn't have been hard, the Germans did after-all manage to land troops on crete, in Norway and in the Italian mountains with ease. There are also plenty of valleys where'in the paratroopers could be dropped.[/quote]

The Bering Straight is one of the most dangerous bodies of water. The Germans had not real landing craft that would have made it through that treacherous water.

Now if you're already trained in mountain warfare then how come you disagree with me on the subject ?

I did not say I was mountain trained. I said I did training with the Gebirgsjaeger.

Why do I disagree with you?

Because I have been to Alaska. You can get troops in there (I will agree that you could get a small amount of troops, but not eneogh to make a difference) and they will certainly perrish. They do not know the terrain and they would not be able to get anywhere fast or quick or in quantaties to make a difference.

The Weather would not cooperate enoegh most of the time to even allow supplies to be flown in.

If they got into Alaska they would be stuck. Whats the point of getting in there and not being able to get out or move foward.

Come on Soren, use some common sense instead of letting your "Uber - I know more than everyone mind" get in the way.

Thats right now I am patronizing. I figured if you are going to accuse me of it, I might as well do it.

Establishing a foothold in mountain terrain isn't that difficult, its forward progress and advancing against the enemy which is hard. So aerial support would be absolutely essential, both because of the need for supplies and the need for combat assistance in order to advance.

So you drop a couple of thousands of paratroopers and have them establish a foothold to which you can deliver supplies and support. The point is but to gain a foothold on mainland Alaska as-well as gaining aircontrol over most of it. With the USSR down the resources would've been there.[/QUOTE]



Yes Soren you are correct. I concede and bow down to you. I am allways wrong and you are allways right.

 

[Soren]

You just can't get by without being calling names and insulting others can you Adler?

And I might be a smartass in your eyes (Don't give a rats *ss) but then you're a ignoramus in mine.

Where have you been patronizing you ask ???! Well telling me not to kid myself is very patronizing in my opinion! And where exactly have I been patronizing toward you Adler ??? NEVER. The only thing which can be considered patronizing was when I followed your example! I don't call people names either, another bad habbit of yours.

Now give it a rest! I'm done with these silly arguments.

Back to the subject at hand...

Hitler failed to give all his troops winterclothing, that lost him StalinGrad! Look it up yourself, look up how many German soldiers froze to death because of inadequate clothing. At the beginning of the really freezing period of the Russian winter the Germans controlled approx. 90% of StalinGrad, that was turned around however because the Wehrmacht lacked winterclothing and were running short on supplies because some person couldn't do his job right.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You just can't get by without being calling names and insulting others can you Adler?

Thats funny Soren because I really dont call anyone names. I only called you a Smart Ass because of what you said to me. Does this ring a bell:

"*Adler, oh mighty god of knowledge* Should I refer to you as such from now on ? Seems like you want me to..."

It goes both ways Soren. I would not have called you a Smart Ass if you had not said that. I know you dont understand why people treat you the way they do. Normally you bring it upon yourself.

Believe it or not Soren I actually like you. I just dont agree with how you try to get your point across half the time.

And I might be a smartass in your eyes (Don't give a rats *ss) but then you're a ignoramus in mine.

Soren I am no more ignorant than you are.

Where have you been patronizing you ask ???! Well telling me not to kid myself is very patronizing in my opinion! And where exactly have I been patronizing toward you Adler ??? NEVER. The only thing which can be considered patronizing was when I followed your example! I don't call people names either, another bad habbit of yours.

Okay Soren. You keep beleiving that.

Its like talking to a brick wall...

Now give it a rest! I'm done with these silly arguments.

Soren I will quit this for one reason and one reason only. Because it does not belong in this thread.

Now having said that, you will never tell me what to do. You got that??!!!

Back to the subject at hand...

Hitler failed to give all his troops winterclothing, that lost him StalinGrad!

It was a contributing factor. It was not the only reason.

Look it up yourself, look up how many German soldiers froze to death because of inadequate clothing. At the beginning of the really freezing period of the Russian winter the Germans controlled approx. 90% of StalinGrad, that was turned around however because the Wehrmacht lacked winterclothing and were running short on supplies because some person couldn't do his job right.

Soren I know the history of Stalingrad. I have studied it at length because my Grandfather was in the battle. Lack of winter clothing was a contributing factor not the only cause.

Another contributing factor (and still not the only one) was when the Soviets pushed through the German Flank (held mostly by Romanians) and encircled the German 6th Army. The 6th Army had sustained heavy casualties in fighting prior to this and was not able to mount a counter offensive and bust out of its encirclement.

Yes it is true that up to 90 percent of the city was held at one point but the casualties sustained were very very heavy. Unlike the Germans the Russians were able to replace there losses at a higher rate.

 

[syscom3]

OK, this is what I see for how things unfold in my hypothysis.

The Japanese do attack Pearl Harbor as planned. However, the Germans refuse to declare war on the US, and "bide their time".

I see the following happening immediatly:
1) The US declares the western Atlantic to be a "U-Boat free zone". For the south Atlantic, the US flagged ships and that of its allies not at war with Germany, will run with full lights to indicate their status. Germany attacks these ships at their own risk for the potential of a declaration of war.
2) The US would supply quite a bit of material to the commonwealth, but not on a vast scale.
3) The US would release pilots for volunteer duty for the RAF and RCAF.
4) The War in the Pacific would pretty much unfold as it did in 1942. The US simply didnt have the resources to begin a general offensive untill the summer of 1942. So just because the US had the materials available, it means nothing untill the sea lanes in the Pacific and Australia are developed and secured.
5) The Brits in the CBI might be better off, as material that would have gone to the MTO and ETO in 1942, would end up there instead.
6) The Commonwealth would still defeat the Africa Corps.
7) The Commonwealth would still be able to invade and hold Sicilly, but not untill late 1943.
8 ) The Germans could divert more material to the fight in Russia, but I still dont know if it would be enough to defeat them.

 

[Hunter368]

Thats possible.

 

[drgondog]

OK, this is what I see for how things unfold in my hypothysis.

The Japanese do attack Pearl Harbor as planned. However, the Germans refuse to declare war on the US, and "bide their time".

I see the following happening immediatly:
1) The US declares the western Atlantic to be a "U-Boat free zone". For the south Atlantic, the US flagged ships and that of its allies not at war with Germany, will run with full lights to indicate their status. Germany attacks these ships at their own risk for the potential of a declaration of war.
2) The US would supply quite a bit of material to the commonwealth, but not on a vast scale.
3) The US would release pilots for volunteer duty for the RAF and RCAF.
4) The War in the Pacific would pretty much unfold as it did in 1942. The US simply didnt have the resources to begin a general offensive untill the summer of 1942. So just because the US had the materials available, it means nothing untill the sea lanes in the Pacific and Australia are developed and secured.
5) The Brits in the CBI might be better off, as material that would have gone to the MTO and ETO in 1942, would end up there instead.
6) The Commonwealth would still defeat the Africa Corps.
7) The Commonwealth would still be able to invade and hold Sicilly, but not untill late 1943.
8 ) The Germans could divert more material to the fight in Russia, but I still dont know if it would be enough to defeat them.

I see some chance that US stays out completely if Japan only attacks Britain and avoids Pearl Harbor. Japan not likely to 'bypass' Phillipines which by necessity means it has to cripple our ability to re-inforce - but the thesis of your own thread is "What if US Stays OUT"

I see very small chance that US fails to declare on Germany following Pearl Harbor - possible but not probable.

Roosevelt could have capitalized on Pearl Harbor attack as an attack by Axis and used the occasional sinkings of US ships in the Atlantic to illustrate the danger Germany posed to us ... and he very much wanted to help Britain and very much concerned if Britain fell.

 

[drgondog]

Pbfoot,

Who'ever spoke of an autobahn ??

I mentioned airbases in Siberia - Alaska is mountain terrain so tanks arent going to prove effective there before any roads are built, therefore Alaska needed to be taken with airpower. The Germans would have to drop the Gebirgs Fallschirm Jägers over Alaska to establish a strong foothold in the area, but they would need constant airsupport as the US Canadian airforce would swarm the area with a/c.

Anyway like I said, Hitler most likely wouldn't want to invade the US until he had Africa Asia in his hands.

Have you thought through logistics of establishing a 'strong foothold' in Alaska would be? The Japanese had a far superior navy, close proximity to supply lines - and never had a hope of keeping Attu and Kiska much less advancing any further - when we were at our weakest..

How many paratroops, based from where, supplied how? (much less how between October and May), road net capable of supporting armor? not even today! Germany couldn't invade Britain from 26 miles away!

 

[drgondog]

Okay dokay Adler, then we disagree.

Giving his troops winter clothes in StalinGrad and the Soviet Union would've lost quickly descisively. With the USSR down I can't see what the Allies could've possibly done to stop Hitler from taking Europe. And with the USSR under control Hitler would've also had a gateway into the US via Alaska Canada as-well.

I may be wrong but my vision of the USSR resolve and hatred of Germany would imply 500,000 + Partisans (minimum) harrassing Germany everywhere - including Georgia and Ukraine and Siberia oild fields - tying down a high percentage of German troops just to hold what they had. Look what Tito did in the Balkan's?

But as it was Hitler just made too many mistakes, and that Goering was the leader of the LW didn't help either... (Dropping supplies to the enemy's troops instead of your own doesn't help you win the war )

If you are referring to Stalingrad, and the ring of flak around the city, it's luck that the LW didn't lose all of the transport a/c used to drop supplies.

Hitler started the different conflicts, he is responsible for the war being lost alone. Had he not declared war on the US so soon he could've bought precious time, and had he given his troops winter clothes he would've taken stalingrad and the USSR would've crumbled.

There is no solid proof that taking Stalingrad, Leningrad or even Moscow would have defeated USSR... and equally no proof that Roosevelt doesn't have the political ability to get US to declare war on germany after Pearl Harbor... even if not immediately following Pearl Harbor

German and Rumanian and other Axis troops certainly suffered in the winter - but remember the Germans failed to push them out in the summer or fall.