disturbing Japanese anime' (hiroshima 1945)

[FLYBOYJ]

So your saying the violence against African Americans in the USA was not as bad as what happened in China(?)... your not African American are you? Violence and brutality of that nature is unacceptable on any scale. Their are some estimates that claim that between 5000 and 8000 American Blacks where lynched in America between the years of 1880 and the 1930's (the years that some claim a rise in "Human Rights"), most of these where in the "south" but not all. I'm not sure why its so important to separate the notion of the "south" from the rest of the USA, but I guess it helps Americans feel better about the truth.

FYI; their are people in Japan who claim the violence in China was unacceptable at the time (people who where alive in the 1930's)...


Rape and pillage happened in WW1 and in European WW2...and easy example would be the Russians against Germany. But Americans where known for looting Europe of "souvenirs"...

There were atrocities committed by all sides during WW2 - that's a given, but please, done even try to compare US "souvenir" hunting to what Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union did during WW2 and into the post war years.

 

[proton45]

There were atrocities committed by all sides during WW2 - that's a given, but please, done even try to compare US "souvenir" hunting to what Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union did during WW2 and into the post war years.

I was not making a judgment...just stating fact.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I was not making a judgment...just stating fact.

Well the fact is while we did have a few soldiers behaving badly, there were also some identified and eventually prosecuted for their crimes. Not that it's made right but as we know during the war you had wide scale plunder sanctioned by the axis powers. After the war the Soviet Union did the same in Eastern Europe and it was done on a scale that would make anything done by the west look like "child's play."

 

[proton45]

Well the fact is while we did have a few soldiers behaving badly, there were also some identified and eventually prosecuted for their crimes. Not that it's made right but as we know during the war you had wide scale plunder sanctioned by the axis powers. After the war the Soviet Union did the same in Eastern Europe and it was done on a scale that would make anything done by the west look like "child's play."

True...Japan did very poor planning in the area of supply and this may have contributed to the compliance of (some) Japanese Generals who voiced personal feelings of contempt for the unacceptable behavior of their soldiers (this point was ment as an acknowledgment of Japanese limited involvement in WW1 and the lessons of supply and production that where learned by the western nations involved). Interestingly enough, General Yamashita is rarely remembered for the way in which he disciplined one of his own officers in the "Battle of Singapore"...Yamashita actually had one of his own officers executed for the unsanctioned killing of POW's in a hospital. Apparently Yamashita even apologized to the surviving POW's at the hospital. On another battle, their are some who say that the civilian casualties in Manila may have been much lower if Yamashita's original orders to stay out of the city had been followed. However once Yamashitas soldiers had left the city Rear Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi forces reoccupied the city with the intent of destroying "key" strategic points (it turned into a civilian blood bath in the end). My point being that these ideas where not unknown in the Japanese military...I should also point out that General Yamashita was somewhat unpopular with the "higher command" (maybe because of his thinking)...

The nature of warfare in the 18th,19th,20th and 21st century is a very interesting topic and its interesting to consider the ways in which the idea of chivalry and "fairplay" (fairplay might not be an accurate term for the idea of a civil / honorable war in which civilians are not used as pawns) have developed.

 

[GrauGeist]

In response to:

America pretty much lost its appetite for war and such after WW1... it wasn't so much a concern for human rights (or equal rights) as it was a distaste for warfare and the things that happen during "all out war". Just look at the things that where happening and accepted in the USA (lynchings and burnings) in the 1930's.

I posted:
That was far from being accepted. It was an issue that permeated throughout the south for the most part, and while it was a despicable part of America's past, it wasn't even close to the scale of the slaughter on the European battlefields.

You replied:

So your saying the violence against African Americans in the USA was not as bad as what happened in China(?) Read my reply above, you may have missed it the first time... your not African American are you? No, I am an American, period. Violence and brutality of that nature is unacceptable on any scale. Their are some estimates that claim that between 5000 and 8000 American Blacks where lynched in America between the years of 1880 and the 1930's (the years that some claim a rise in "Human Rights"), most of these where in the "south" but not all. I can assure you that more unfortunate blacks and thier white sympathizers (oh yeah, friends of blacks mixed couples weren't immune) were lynched and worse, in places in the south like Alabama or Georgia, for example, than say, in Oregon or Wyoming. I'm not sure why its so important to separate the notion of the "south" from the rest of the USA, but I guess it helps Americans feel better about the truth.

I'm trying to figure out how Black Americans work into the Hiroshima discussion, but I'll respond anyway.

How is there any "feeling better" about that truth? The fact that an estimated 5 to 8 thousand Americans were killed over the course of 50 years by fellow Americans is, like I said before, despicable and inexcusable. What I was getting at in my previous response, was that in Europe, people had just experianced a war who's battles saw slaughters of up to 18,800 Allied soldiers alone...in one single day. Those were just the British losses during the opening battle of the Somme, 1 July 1916. The Somme would go on to be a meat grinder consuming a staggering amount of men during it's course. It was only one of many bitter battles, as you may or may not know.

So perhaps the domestic issue of injustices against Black Americans back then is similiar to what we see in today's society and it's "great public outcry" against the former administration and it's "war for oil" instead of trying to do something about the 16,204 Americans that were murdered last year.

 

[proton45]

In response to:

I posted:
That was far from being accepted. It was an issue that permeated throughout the south for the most part, and while it was a despicable part of America's past, it wasn't even close to the scale of the slaughter on the European battlefields.

You replied:

I'm trying to figure out how Black Americans work into the Hiroshima discussion, but I'll respond anyway.

How is there any "feeling better" about that truth? The fact that an estimated 5 to 8 thousand Americans were killed over the course of 50 years by fellow Americans is, like I said before, despicable and inexcusable. What I was getting at in my previous response, was that in Europe, people had just experianced a war who's battles saw slaughters of up to 18,800 Allied soldiers alone...in one single day. Those were just the British losses during the opening battle of the Somme, 1 July 1916. The Somme would go on to be a meat grinder consuming a staggering amount of men during it's course. It was only one of many bitter battles, as you may or may not know.

So perhaps the domestic issue of injustices against Black Americans back then is similiar to what we see in today's society and it's "great public outcry" against the former administration and it's "war for oil" instead of trying to do something about the 16,204 Americans that were murdered last year.

I was commenting on why people always say "in the south" when they talk about the racial issues of the past...I did it too. Its an interesting qualifying statement that people always seem to make. I'm not sure that its really an important distinction to make when discussing the issue. It tends to suggest that the "south" has a greater culpability in the matter.

Some of my comments developed out of the "flow" of the thread...and perhaps I should have addressed some of your comments in a different context.

Another thought I was trying to make was about how people "rank" horrific events by severity...The deaths of the African Americans and the campaign of terror launched against them was a horrible event in our history, and so was the trench warfare of WW1...but why compare them "on a scale"? Why a need to measure the tragedy? Does the number of deaths make one event worse then another? Again it suggests a value of culpability...

As far as the analogy you are drawing between the "war on oil" and all that...I can't really comment. But if you read the thread you will see that someone else brought up the topic of Americas changing views on the importance of "human rights" between the years of 1880 and 1930. I merely pointed out a fact on the topic...

 

[razor1uk]

Well its certainly gotten hot in here (the topic), lets cool down abit before round 45...

War is always the worst imaginable to those at the time, the worst things will always happen in it because people are in it, and were all individual, with differing opinions, prejudices, upbringings/environments/mindsets (or 'brain washings' for looking from there own mindset) etc.

Just as Japan is still trying to reconcile itself to what happened, so to are other countries in their own way. We will never hear an apology for the Indian Massacre's nor should we expect for Nanking.
Hell the Chinese Civil War before 36' was more blood thirsty and brutal than what Nhomahan Nanking, let alone post the 45' CCW, but because it was by non Chinese, its viewed as a 'polite'/'politically correct' way or morning and blaming someone else for something that happened during there own terrible time, that most likely will not ever be aknowledeged by the PPC because its easier to shift all the blame, emotion and social guilt to another. I'm not meaning what the IJA IJN hardliners did wasn't as bad as it was, but in our own national histories, have we done any less at one time?

I'm not meaning to say I condone or forgive what happened, but we all choose some things more than others to remember from the past cos' its easier, safer, commonly acceptable, more palatable, glosses over our own mistakes etc.

As for the Anime, I am an avid Anime fan, I have been watching for anime for 17 years, and I actually have a copy of Barefoot Gen (graphic book/manga). I agree with the earlier post that the clip was taken from the film/story for inflamatory purposes, like a 'sound-bite'.
I have found anime to be very much more 'thoughtful' than other cartoon mediums, yes some come include kinkyness (Erro), demon, bestial or other porn (Hentai), but also there are many much more of love (Yaoi, Yuri, Shounen, Shoinen etc), relationship struggles, work relations, crime, fame, futuristic fantasy past fantasy plus more I don't know of.

This is most likely why the clip was sourced from anime, because the beauty of anime, (and manga too) is that it is likely any human concieved story with events relating to life living, actions, reasons consiquences, interacting with other people/characters/deities/personalities including the grey areas (non black--white-only-plots) have in an analogeous way been produced in this medium. Yes anime can appear a little extreme or just plain 'wtf is that', but are we any different, and for that matter, why should we expect war to be any different, especally 65 years later with current info' avaialble, mindsets and learnings/teachings.

 

[Njaco]

How long should we cool down? Its been a year already!

 

[razor1uk]

Whoops, didn't notice the dates, got into reading too much. Sorry for unintentially bumping this thread (and again). I'd say things hsve cooled then...

 

[Njaco]

 

[TheMustangRider]

The video attached at the beginning of the thread is no longer available in Youtube and I didn't get to watch it. Talk about bad timing.

 

[Matt308]

Really? Must be a copyright "thing". The video was actually very well done. Not necessarily historic, but certainly graphically and emotionally compelling. As an American, I took no offense. Certainly the horrors of war are painted in many different mediums.

 

[wheelsup_cavu]

Really? Must be a copyright "thing". The video was actually very well done. Not necessarily historic, but certainly graphically and emotionally compelling. As an American, I took no offense. Certainly the horrors of war are painted in many different mediums.

It may not have been that video that was copyrighted Matt but the entire account was deleted due to copyright infringement.

This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement.

I must not have seen it the first time because I can't remember the video even after reading through the thread again.


Wheels

 

[proton45]

I dont mean to drag this whole topic through the mud...but certainly it must be noted that China's view on the issue changed after the communists took charge. At the end of WW2 reparations where paid by Japan and papers where signed...it was the communists who cried "foul" some years later (was it in the 1970's?). Thats when the issue 1st got heated...

 

[Shinpachi]

Right. Japan was to have two negotiation partners in China - Republic of China and People's Republic China after the war.
The former once condemned Japan severely to forgive her finally.
The latter came next and began to condemn again.
It is endless at the moment when the generation has been changed twice.

 

[tail end charlie]

China loses 6000 people per year in mining accidents and executes almost the same number for various offences, the idea of China getting upset about human rights is risible and that isnt in any way excusing nanking or the rest of it. The chinese invented the death by a thousand cuts which is basically cutting a man apart in places which wont kill him directly.

 

[razor1uk]

Yep, to quote a film, "In Chinese culture we have many hells Jack..."

 

[TheMustangRider]

Really? Must be a copyright "thing". The video was actually very well done. Not necessarily historic, but certainly graphically and emotionally compelling. As an American, I took no offense. Certainly the horrors of war are painted in many different mediums.

The video and the whole account was deleted in fact but doing a little bit more extensive research in Youtube, I happened to find it on another account and as you put it; the images are certainly graphic and can potentially strike fear just by looking at them.
Those unfortunates living in those cities at the time of the attacks, certainly experienced a horrible death.