Dog fights on the History channel

[Haztoys]

The only one kidding oneself here is you Hazytoys. You're totally disregarding the amount of men material assigned to fighting the western allies and ho far the Germans actually came even without it. The mere addition of winterclothes would've secured Stalingrad, preventing some 300,000 men dying of cold.

The USSR would've fallen had it not been for the huge amount of men material needed on the western front, there's no doubt about it.

As noted had the German troops in Stalingrad merely had winterclothes then the city would've fallen, from which point on the German would have a strong foothold in the USSR from which to combat the remaining Soviet forces. And with the taking of Stalingrad the caucasus region was soon to follow, fueling the German army for the rest of the way through the USSR.

Stalin knew this, hence him being only a day away from negotiating truce terms with Hitler, being sure he would soon lose the city and the war with it.



Because of the western front.

Its one thing to sucker punch someone ...And its something else for the other guy to see it coming.. So he can defend him self..

Mother Russia has all the tools to win a war .. She would of negotiated a truce then geared up and push the Germans back to Germany..Taking over a country never works out ..Don't kid your self ..In the end the Germans would of lost ..They did not have the man power to do what they did ..Winter cloth or not .. They could of won ether the west front or the east ..But not both..

Luck sucker punch ..Is how I see it.. They did that a time or three in Europe two.. Not putting the Germans fighting machine down at all..They were the best in the world at the time .. But Soren's your the one kiding your self thinking they had the man power to keep what the took..

As the US is finding out .. They may have won some land for a time .. The Russians did not need help..The help shorten the war sure.. The Germans would of lost in the end ..

And Sorens.. Why did the german higher ups not get the cloths to the troops ..Offten wondered about that..I know there ago was that this was going to take six months ..But at some point they could see that a change in plans needed to be done...???

 

[JugBR]

besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.

 

[Haztoys]

besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.

Yes they were ..Are that point the Russians were all geared up and ready to go...Not sitting on there back side thinking the Germans would not attack..I "think" Stalins pack with Germany was so he could have time to clean out his own house

And "I" feel if the Germans would of just whated untill the Allied attacked on D-Day ..And used all there troops at D-Day ..the Allies would of never gottin off the beach...And the Allies would of gave up and a truce would of come ...I think alot of people do not understand ..D-Day for the Allies realy did not go as planned.. The Germans had the Allies covered..Just not anuff cover to go around..

Then maybe the eastern front would of been a whole new game ...

Hows it go "Clean up one mess before you start another"

 

[Soren]

Hazytoys I relly don't get your posts as you're basically saying two things at once.

What I'm saying is that hadn't it been for the western front depriving the Germans of much needed manpower material then they would've taken the USSR.

What exactly is your position ?

 

[Udet]

...

 

[Haztoys]

Soren his position is rather simple: the guy is one of those lifeforms chanting the same allied Disneylandic mantra suggesting that if had not been because of USA involvement in the ETO, the bolshevik army would have "steam-rolled" its way deep into Western Europe, reaching the Channel -one of the several allied "turn ons" here-. Does not surprise me that these wimps feel hot and mean to suggest the bolsheviks could have reached Lisbon. It makes one wonder that USA absent, could the reds have occupied the Azores and the Canarias?

These people live in a ridiculous land of fantasy. The fact they keep repeating the same crap over and over again will not turn their mantras into reality. They dream with the fact that either way, sooner or later, the reds win.

At some moment of the war, the bolshevik nation had one foot suspended over the abyss. No USA in the ETO, no bolshevik victory. Simple.

.... ..What ever

 

[parsifal]

Just a few observations

Pilot quality:

By late '44, the average German German Pilot was receiving something like less than 100 hours flying time, compared to the average of well over 350 in the US. Moreover the average flight experience in the ETO for the US was over 500 hours at the front. This is one of the main reasons for the very lopsided losses against the LW at this time. It was not so much about the numbers.....the numbers of fighters on each side at the beginning of 1944, and then at the end of 1944, was not that different. LW was still able to put up something like 1900 fighters in late 1944.However the overall kill ratios were heavily lopsided against the LW by late '44. They were just being shot out the sky by that stage. There is no other way of putting it.

Now, as to the role of the Russians, and that of the Americans or the British for that matter, they were all elements in the crucible of victory. Each part was needed to defeat Germany. Knock out one, an an element leading to victory is lost, with unknown consequences

There are several books that I know of that challenge the one-sidedness of the air war in the east. German losses at Kursk were not light, and operational rates always fairly low throughout the whole east front campaign from mid-43 onward. It went up and down, but from '43 on, the general trend was down. And Soviet tactics were such that killing lots of Germans was not necessary...basically swamp a section of a front, punch your hole in the German lone and pour through. 5000 a/c concentrated against a sector of the front, where you might encounter 200-300 defenders, those 200-300 are going to have virtually no effect. Overall the LW might boast 2-3000 a/c for the entire front, but of these, only half can fly, and because the Germans dont have the initiative any more, must be strung out over the entire east front

 

[Haztoys]

Soren ...You really think that the Germans could of taken all of Russia as vast as it is..???..Even if they had the western front won.. ?..I can see France or Poland its not that big EZer to control the whole country...Lots of land east of Stalingrad for the Russian's to regroup...And come back at the Germans..

No...

 

[Soren]

Parsifal,

You should ask Erich what really happened in the air over the eastern front. The VVS got their asses handed to them right till the end, the LW was mauling the VSS.

 

[Soren]

Soren ...You really think that the Germans could of taken all of Russia as vast as it is..???..Even if they had the western front won.. ?..I can see France or Poland its not that big EZer to control the whole country...Lots of land east of Stalingrad for the Russian's to regroup...And come back at the Germans..

No...

No I'm afraid I have to disagree.

 

[JugBR]

Soren his position is rather simple: the guy is one of those lifeforms chanting the same allied Disneylandic mantra suggesting that if had not been because of USA involvement in the ETO, the bolshevik army would have "steam-rolled" its way deep into Western Europe, reaching the Channel -one of the several allied "turn ons" here-. Does not surprise me that these wimps feel hot and mean to suggest the bolsheviks could have reached Lisbon. It makes one wonder that USA absent, could the reds have occupied the Azores and the Canarias?

These people live in a ridiculous land of fantasy. The fact they keep repeating the same crap over and over again will not turn their mantras into reality. They dream with the fact that either way, sooner or later, the reds win.

At some moment of the war, the bolshevik nation had one foot suspended over the abyss. No USA in the ETO, no bolshevik victory. Simple.

about 20 milion sovietic military and civilians died in the german invasion.

soviet union was the only country that was invaded by the wehrmarch and fight back until the wehrmarch get out from their territory.

the numbers of operation barbarossa:

107 infantry divisions
19 panzer divisions,
18 motorized divisions
one cavalry division

3.350 tanks
7,200 artillery pieces
2,770 aircraft
3.000.000 soldiers

70% of total german strenght(205 divisions) was mobilized to this operation

775.000 casualties, 1/4 of the force, including deads woundeds and missing

speeches:

The war against the Soviets could not be conducted
so cavalier. This fight is of ideologies and racial differences
and should be conducted with unprecedented brutality, merciless and unrelenting

Anyone who fights against Nazism will have our help

Russia is a country which is easy to get into, but very difficult to get out of

There´s no place for crying babies and caowards. Our army and our people´s cant fearing this fight

 

[Haztoys]

No I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Your feelings and opinions are noted..

 

[parsifal]

Im sure that Erich will put his viewpoint forward quite soon.

 

[Njaco]

One point I believe you're forgetting Soren is timing. If Hitler hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41, Barbarossa would have been earlier and those divisions in Greece and quite possibly Africa would have been freed up. That being said, Moskow might have fallen and so may have Stalingrad but Stalin would have worked out counter measures, equipment would have been modernized from the obsolete stuff they were using and Germany eventually would have lost. The western front did have forces tied up but before D-day they were mostly RnR for eastern front troops.

 

[JugBR]

One point I believe you're forgetting Soren is timing. If Hitler hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41, Barbarossa would have been earlier and those divisions in Greece and quite possibly Africa would have been freed up. That being said, Moskow might have fallen and so may have Stalingrad but Stalin would have worked out counter measures, equipment would have been modernized from the obsolete stuff they were using and Germany eventually would have lost. The western front did have forces tied up but before D-day they were mostly RnR for eastern front troops.

barbarossa wasnt just about invade a country, but also exterminate one race and one ideology.

the diferences between the eastern and the western front are huge. maybe, following tho logic(???) of adolf hitler, would be more acceptable if they "hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41", they give up at that moment from africa, then move all afrika korps to the eastern front.

i believe such situation (rommel in russia) wouldnt change anything, moscow should never falls under german domination then hitler would lost a great bite of his army for nothing anyway. they killed 20 milion russians and 20 milion russians killed wasnt enought, so what would be enought ?

the battle of americans, was to eliminate a tyrant. the battle of the britons and the russians was for their own survival. when you fight for the survival of your people, your nation, every sacrifice is not enought.

 

[parsifal]

Its hard to know what impact the western front had on the eastern front. re nearly 80 Divs left on garrison duty whilst Barbarossa was underway. But this is an over-simplistic way of looking at the issue. Quite apart from the threat posed by the British, an abandonment or lessening of the garrisons in the occupied territories would only have allowed the opportunities for armed insurrections there to increase....with partisans, uprisings, sabotage etc, all distinct possibilities. To say nothing of what the British, now completely unfettered by even the remote possibility of invasion. The possibility of direct British reinforcement of the eastern front cannot be ruled out. It was certainly something that was discussed. Churchill was against it, for obvious reasons, but it had been indicated that in the event of the Russian capital falling, the British would go in. In what strength, it is unclear. Stalin had demanded a force of over 30 divs, which was quite beyond anything the British could sustain, but a BEF style of commitment to the eastern front was not impossible

Moreover, of those 80 divs, hardly any were fit for hard operations in the summer of 1941. Many of the divs lacked proper complements of artillery, or had been reduced to mere two battalion/two regiment divs, instead of the 3bn/3 regt configuration for a true front-line div. Much of the manpower being used was either under-trained, or overage, or both. Nearly all were short on transport (including horse transport). There were problems with nearly every formation left in the west....the Panzer unit in Norway for example had 50 Mk IIIs on strength, all of them nearly useless because they had faulty gearboxes, and gearbox transmissions were in such short supply, that not even the units already committed could be kept up to strength.

Now, many of the Infantry formations were hurriedly brought up to strength (by having their manpower profiles normalized, and hasty stripping out of reserves for equipment to bring TO&Es up to standard. They had also the benefit of an additional 4 months in which to train and prepare before being sent off the front. Even so, most of the formations sent to the east in the wake of the December emergencies were only ever satisfactory for defensive purposes, due to the shortcomings in their manpower, and/or equipment scales

 

[Charly1]

Hi Guys,
Ever notice that none of the control surfaces ever move in the dog fight graphics.

 

[Njaco]

I agree with you Jug, that was the goal. And sorry for the rough "butt" language.

Charly, I haven't seen that. The ones I have watched have that - at least most I've seen.

 

[Erich]

the Ost front had a major impact on the Nazi mind in 1945, due to fact that 3/4's of the day time fighter force were moved by January 45 end to defend the eastern side into Berlin for the last battles, allowing the US/RAF to almost go literally untouched and smash the Reich to smitherines, this was the rule at least for the day ops.

 

[drgondog]

Hi Guys,
Ever notice that none of the control surfaces ever move in the dog fight graphics.

I have seen them move - sometimes correctly sometimes wrong. IIRC the Bob Johnson fight had the 'high' wing with an up aileron