**** DONE: 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf 110 G-2 - Me/ Fw Group Build.

[Crimea_River]

Erich, yes I didn't read the unit called up by Revell, just looked to see if I could find pics of 2N+FN. As to the Staffel colours, I defer to your expertise but had understood the standard 5 staffel colour to be red although I know things changed late in the war with staffels moving into different groups so it could very well be yellow. Unfortunately Vasco doesn't ID the 2 aircraft on p. 116 but it looks to me like the one on the top could be the one. The one on the bottom is not identifiable.

Sorry Gerry, we're probably boring you!

 

[rochie]

ok here's what i've dug up in my stuff.
both from PSL - WW2 Photoalbum 04 - Fighters Defending the Reich

 

[Crimea_River]

Good ones Karl. Good eye! Not sure about the top one though - no RV band.

Based on those pics, I'd stay away from the yellow cowl cowl undersides and I agree with Erich, the RV band would be white, not yellow. I didn't see the yellow band called out on the Revell scheme.

EDIT: Found this in the loss lists in Vasco's Sting of the Luftwaffe book: Bf-110 G-2 WNr 120173 coded 2N+FN flown by Ruland (Roland?) Zahn of 5 Staffel ZG 1 lost on May 29, 1944 southeast of St Polten, Austria. Pilot killed but can not find him in the Kracker archives.

 

[Erich]

top pic is from ZG 76 lower pic from II./ZG 1 in winter of 43/44, prop spinners are black. both fotos from German archival materials and in the very old book Bf 110 Zerstörer an allen Fronten 39-45 by Holger Nauroth and Werner Held. for man many years this was the classic standard work and for many it still is. it is a bildband.

back to the lower foto as this was it appears after take off and forming up at least with 6th staffel machines. find luckys thread with the pics Gerry

E ~

 

[Erich]

let me show you guys the difficulty in trying to find clear colour representations

note the rumpfband looks yellow right ? .............. well it is actually white

a crate from ZG 26

thin white rumpfband characteristic of the unit when flying the earlier Bf 110G-2's the band beame wide when unit was equipped with Me 410 variants.

another pic to give flavour to my posting

ZG 76 bird yellow on yellow the bird had 4 forward firing 2cm cannons

 

[A4K]

Some great research guys!

 

[Gerry]

Thanks A4K. We must have a separate chat at some stage about my visit to Ohakea when they were still flying A4Ks, (my wife's cousin was based there).

Karl, I appreciate your posting the photos. Your first shot certainly seems to show the FN code and the possibility of red tipped spinners. In your second shot, I think the 2nd aircraft is carrying FN codes also. If, as Erich has pointed out, both ZG 76 and ZG 1 had aircraft with the same aircraft codes and the ZG codes were in the much smaller size, I can begin to see how Revell got confused.

Andy and Erich, I'm certainly not bored with your elaborations - maybe a little confused - but that's only because I'm coming to this subject with no knowledge to speak of. However, I do feel I'm beginning to get some initial understanding of the markings, from your postings, especially the photos and I really appreciate it. I still haven't finished reading through the appropriate threads, but when I do, I'll try to summarise what I've learnt and refer back to you both to make sure I haven't misinterpreted any of your views.

Erich, how wrong is Revell's scheme for III./ZG 26 from the picture you posted?

Cheers, Gerry

 

[A4K]

Sounds good mate - sickening to think they're just going to pot with the Aermacchis in a hangar... apparently various 'individuals' in US defence circles won't let us donate our own bloody aircraft to museums round the country....I have a VERY strong opinion of these people

 

[Airframes]

Here's a selection of scans of Bundes Archiv pics. Rather than post the details of each, if there's anything specific you want to know about a pic, I can check the details against the negative numbers.
The profile is from the old Squadron Signal 'In Action' book, and is rather dubious - the spinner colours are the wrong way around, and the rear canopy is wrong for a 'G' !
I'm sorting some more accurate profiles at the moment.

 

[vikingBerserker]

NICE!

 

[Erich]

profile is wrong. it is for ZG 1 but the band is for ZG 76, it should be white and the props are incorrect.

Gerry no the codes are thus :

ZG 1 = 2N
ZG 26 = 3U
ZG 76 = M8

ZG 1 wide white band
ZG 26 narrow white band later wide white band
ZG 76 wide yellow band, later wide red band

all units had different prop configs like spirals, solids, dual and three color combo's even black green base with dual white rings.

top two pics which I have posted in the past are from II./ZG 1 in the spring of 1944 the upper nose long rod 2cm were removed later.

ZG 26 experimented with the upper nose 3cm cannons but it was too much firepower and again as I stated on another thread you had to get in close to fire with these so these were also removed.

AM from ZG 76, OT from ZG 26, EM and LN from ZG 76. All these pics and more in my data base from the 1960's

 

[Airframes]

Thanks for the confirmation Eric. As mentioned, the profile is wrong in a number of respects. The pics have been posted for details use, and your info matches that of the negative numbers.

 

[Vic Balshaw]

Big debate, good outcome. Well done guys.

 

[Crimea_River]

Gerry, a good site to begin usnderstanding LW codes and colours is here: The Luftwaffe in Scale: Identification Codes of Luftwaffe Units 1939 - 1945 and here: The Luftwaffe in Scale: Alpha codes of combat wings (units) and squadrons of the Luftwaffe 1938-1945

 

[Erich]

sorry CR but your link has some incorrect info most for this thread is the use of 2N which is not right, this was ZG 1's from the get go till the Bf 110G-2 II gruppe was annihilated and pulled from duty in late 44. III./ZG 76 never had this marking later in the war as ZG 76 ceased to exist in fall of 44.

I also note the problem with NJG 3 as another it was always D5 never 3J, was L1 for 1 year.

C9 was always NJG 5 never NJG 100

all of NJG 2 not just 7th staffel was initially R4 then it reversed for the whole NJG to 4R for the rest of the war. I see contradictory statements throughout the page.

oh well ...........

 

[Airframes]

Good info Eric - I've updated my old (1970s) listings.

 

[Crimea_River]

Yes, I figured there would be errors there and have never gone through it detail. Seems nothing is 100% accurate. Erich, do you know of a better link for similar info? I had this one booked for a long time.

 

[Erich]

there is nothing 100 % accurate whether codes, colours or gruppe/staffel unit emblems, not even by book standards though I still enjoy the late 1960's 4 Karl Ries volumes.

maybe some day though it would almost be a monumental task.

 

[Gerry]

I've been quiet over the last few days, simply because I have been trying to digest and understand all of the information posted to the thread regarding Bf110 Group/Stafflen markings from 1943 on. As the dialogue between Andy and Erich has shown, there is a lot of incorrect information out there and that makes it doubly difficult for somebody like myself, with little expertise, to arrive at a correct solution. So, therefore, a big thank you to Erich and Andy for their efforts and postings on this and other threads about the Bf 110, without which I would have been totally lost, understanding the complexity of the subject.

I would also like to say a special thanks to Terry (Airframes) for not only posting some very good photos to the Thread, but for taking the trouble to e-mail me with very useful material from his personal collection.

Over the next few posts, I am going to attempt to list the candidate aircraft, based on my research from this and other threads, which I think would allow me to enter an accurate Bf110 G-2 to the group build.

I'm hoping to keep each post short, to avoid confusion. The conclusions are mine, based on what I understand to be the information supplied. If I'm wrong - and I'm sure to be about somethings - I hope you'll continue to point out my errors. (I'm hoping that I haven't completely misunderstood Erich's, Andy's and Terry's contributions). I will also re-post photos from other contributors for clarity. I trust that this will not be a problem. Otherwise, if I'm unable to do this with some references, I'll refer to Post Numbers, in this thread.

Firstly, two photos of aircraft with the weapons configuration that are possible builds from the kit.

Photo 1. Probably the most common weapons configuration in all of the photos I'll be posting. This has been posted by a number of contributors on various threads and has been identified by Erich as a ZG 26 aircraft. Would anybody have the codes for this particular aircraft? That would make my life soooo easy!

Photo 2. Despite Erich's assertion, that with this weapons configuration, this aircraft had all the flight characteristics of a brick, I have all the components to build it. Again, it's been identified as ZG 26, but any idea of what it's codes might have been?

 

[Erich]

top pic the dark letter may be a T indicating 9th staffel in III./ZG 26, which is possible of course this gruppe was never outfitted with the Me 410 and in fact was wiped almost clean by US escort fighters in spring of 1944 when the gruppe had to be disbanded. The last losses in fact were towards the end of May 1944, then nothing ..............

now Gerry if I may add the gruppe used the 3U + then a colored number from winter of 43/44 right through February of 44 then the numbers were removed and the last two lettered code was completed. I feel the above Bf 110G-2 is marked 3U + ?T 9./ZG 26.

7th = R
8th = S
9th = T

lower pic not sure at all as we only have the front of the unit.