**** DONE: 1/48 Messerschmitt Bf 110 G-2 - Me/ Fw Group Build.

[A4K]

Some fantastic research here, keep it coming guys!

 

[Gerry]

Let's look at some other aircraft that have been identified as from ZG 26, with 2 letter codes, so presumably after Feb, '44. I apologise for the quality of the photos as some are copies of copies.

Picture 1. This has been identified as 3U+OT (by Erich?). By my reckoning that would make it 9./ZG 26. I think it's carrying the ventral pod, as it has no guns in nose top. So, white narrow rumpfband, white tipped spinner(?), yellow aircraft letter(?)

Picture 2. has been identified as 3U+KR, 7./ZG 26. Ventral pod fitted? Narrow white rumpfband, white tipped spinner, white aircraft letter(?) and what looks like a yellow underwing band - I say that, because it appears darker than the white section of the underwing cross.

Picture 3. This is identified as 3U+AT, 9./ZG 26. Looks like a ventral pod in place - BUT it has a wide white rumpfband. Spinners(?) Yellow aircraft letter(?). I can just about make out '3U' on the white band, on the original. I don't know if that will be seen on the forum.

What I'm hoping for here is to narrow down to best possibilities, then look for appropriate decals on the internet. If none are forthcoming, I may have to cut stencils, so would prefer non-curved letters i.e. 'T', 'K', 'A', etc and try to avoid curved letters like, 'S', 'O' etc.

Some more possible options in my next post.

 

[Erich]

the first two pics yes from III./ZG 26 narrow white band, unless you can see the 3U on the 3rd pic then it is yellow band with M8 on it from III. gruppe. ZG 26 did use the wide white band we know on the Me 410's as for the Bf 110G-2's - possibly. note the similar spinner styles for the 3rd gruppe of ZG 26 can we say safely this was a gruppe marking for all three staffels ? ............. just throwing this out for thoughts. does look like 3U on the wide white band under closer inspection plus the spinner color has changed.

 

[Gerry]

OK, here's a couple more.

Picture 1. One of Terry's posts and has everything I want to put onto my build! Can't see any guns in top of nose. Has been identified by Terry and Erich as M8+EM. So, 4./ZG 76(?) Yellow rumpfband(?), yellow spinner rings(?), possible red spinner tips (they seem a lighter tone than the spinner backs), white aircraft letter, outlined in black(?). What do you think? My only real problem is I don't have the small 'M8' codes and they're too small do cut by hand and the black outlined letter may be hard to find, so if everything else falls into place for this one, I'll have to figure that out.

The second option I haven't been able to lift and paste across. It's the Bf 110s forming up over the alps, posted by Erich in post 25. I think Erich has identified this, on Lucky13's thread as being 2N+BP, 6./ZG 1. Wide white rumpfband, spinners(?), yellow aircraft letter(?). I have the small '2N' code for this on the kit decals.

That's as far as I've got and I'd welcome your feedback, or other suggestions. Final question. If you refer back to the decals that came with the kit (Post 1), would 2N+FN work as a 5./ZG 1 scheme? We could figure out spinner colours later.

Cheers,

Gerry

 

[Gerry]

Thanks for your prompt replies , Erich. Can definitely confirm 3U on white band of 3rd photo. Much easier to see on original I have. There may be a slight lapse in communication as I'm off to bed now!

 

[woody]

So impressive to see such research this will be a great build.

 

[Crimea_River]

Final question. If you refer back to the decals that came with the kit (Post 1), would 2N+FN work as a 5./ZG 1 scheme? We could figure out spinner colours later.

I'd say yes.

I'm going to go back to this one for a sec Gerry as I may be able to help you with the decals:

There's a rather erroneous profile in the Kajero publication "Messerschmitt Bf 110 Vol III" that shows an aircraft coded "2N+AM" of 4/ZG 76 belonging to Bf 110 ace Helmut Haugk (see below). There are a couple of things wrong with this profile but bear with me.

Now we already know that the 2N is wrong and should be M8 for this aircraft to belong to ZG 76. What's also wrong is the RV band, which should be yellow for ZG 76(oddly the caption says it's yellow but the profile is white, par for the course for this publication actually). It's been documented the Haugk was with 4/ZG 76 between October/43 and May 44 but I can not confirm he flew M8_AM without further research. However, with others' help we may be able to pin this one down, and I can mail you the "AM" but not the M8 because Kajero supplied the 2N's.

Clear as mud?

 

[Gerry]

Thanks, Evan and Jerry. I'm certainly hoping it will be a reasonably accurate scheme.

Andy, the custard thickens! I appreciate your offer. Let's see how M8+AM holds up. I already have a number of questions on both the photo and profile, but no point in putting them unless we decide it's worth progressing. in the meantime, I'm going to trawl for relevant decal sets on the web and see if there are any other of the options possible from whats available.

 

[Erich]

yes it is an M8+EM bird from 4./ZG 76, yellow Reich band not white. Osprey even has the code wrong in its Destroyer Bf 110 booklet as well.....have to admit Ospreys editing dept. really sucks it always has.

in the autumn of 1943 ZG 76 used M8+ a colored number, this was used from October- through May of 1944 but it is obvious it also used the two lettered. system inclusive.

4th staffel was white
5th staffel was black
6th staffel was yellow

in the second week of May 1944 II./ZG 76 was equipped with a mix of Me 410 A's and B's.

 

[Crimea_River]

Erich, any info on Haugk's rig, whether he in fact flew AM? Also, not sure it had the twin cannon in the gondola although others in the staffel look like they had them.

Edit: Photo caption on p 94 of "Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstörer aces of World War 2" By John Weal shows Bf-110 "2N+EM" and says it's Haugk's. If they say 2N and not M8, can we believe them when they say it's Haugk's? The picture looks like th esame plane as in post #44, just taken from slighly below. Here's a link: http://books.google.ca/books?id=PKa9EH5sb9gC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=helmut+haugk+bf+110&source=bl&ots=wXN7t5mVQS&sig=p9bKRPl3oICuJP2-9urDdfjsNW8&hl=en&ei=k77vTZytJoiCsQOu2ej_Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Erich]

he was the leader of 4th staffel that we know. Osprey is wrong like I said, and yes there are gondola twin 2cm weapons. not finding a pic of him and his crate so we cannot know for certain. maybe one day a ZG 76 book will be in print but for now not much out there.

 

[Crimea_River]

Sourced on the net:

 

[Gerry]

OK Guys, I'm getting confused again!!??!

Let me try and understand your latest posts. I understand we're talking about the profile only? And if it's identified as Haugk's aircraft, Erich's contention is that it should be M8+EM, not M8+AM or 2N+EM, 4./ZG 76, right? I followed Andy's latest link and on page 94 of the preview of the book, I would concur that pictured is the same aircraft as on post 44, (wrongly?) identified in its caption as "... Helmut Haugk's 4./ZG 76 (2N+EM)..."

I do have a slight concern that this is, at least, the third separate published reference I've so far found, to ZG 76 having the '2N' codes (Vasco, Weal, Bradac - and many profiles). Erich, I also understand from your comments in post 35, that you're adamant that only ZG 1 ever carried that code so perhaps you can understand my confusion.

your link has some incorrect info most for this thread is the use of 2N which is not right, this was ZG 1's from the get go till the Bf 110G-2 II gruppe was annihilated and pulled from duty in late 44. III./ZG 76 never had this marking later in the war as ZG 76 ceased to exist in fall of 44.

Back to the photo of M8+AM (I think it's ZG 76 because that rumpfband looks yellow. Is it aBf 110G-2 - hard for me to be sure because the top of the nose cowl is missing - and if so, is it a possible subject for my build?

I apologise for the number of question marks in this post and for the fact that I'm being pedantic, but I'm just trying to understand the subject the best I can.

I really appreciate the effort and knowledge both Erich and Andy are contributing on this subject, so please don't take anything I've said as criticism, rather just a search for certainty.

 

[Erich]

Gerry and all

it is basically this..................sloppy, crappy research. I personally do not care whom publishes this trash but at least for historical accuracy get your photos for your books under closer ID with a microscope if need be. One of the probs is the English/US authors have tried to copy pics from the older German editions which required careful useage and what has turned out is garbage - dark scans, details very hidden.

in the case of documenting a Bf 110G-2 with four lower 2cm cannon the II gruppe of ZG 1 used the 2N code. NO ONE else did in the time period of fall of 1943 through summer of 1944.

I own complete losses listings for this unit - II./ZG 1, ZG 26 and ZG 76 received some years ago by an English research friend who runs a very thorough and extensive WW 2 air-remembrance site.

by the way JV in his book on ZG 1 gives 2N as their codes for fall of 43 till wars end and he is very correct.

 

[Crimea_River]

Gerry, I feel for you man. Been there many a time trying to figure out what's right and wrong. Note that the first several pages pages on my Me 410 thread are devoted to trying to pick a scheme and feature various debates over the data availble. It's the nature of the beast if you want true accuracy! In the end, you'll settle on a scheme that yuou feel comfortable with.

As to Haugk's crate, we'd need to dig deeper to see if he flew one or the other, or both for that matter. But then, it's only one of many possible schemes you could do.

 

[Gerry]

Thanks again Guys. I'm confident we'll have a result on the codes by the time it's built to that stage. I've an Aries cockpit set on order, along with some Quickboost drilled exhausts and MG151/20 barrels, so, as soon as I receive those, I'm ready to start the build.

I've also had a good search for Bf110 Decals. I'm disappointed with what I've found, which are decals for C, D and E variants, only. However I've ordered a set of Authentic Decals for the Bf110D, which will allow me to make 3U+KR and black stafflen letters M, N, R, H, S. Along with that I could do 2N+FN (from the kit decals). I think at this stage that I could also go for M8+AT (with Andy's donation) or M8+EM. Both of these last options are dependent on being able to source and construct small 'M8' codes from old scrap decals I have. They're there, just don't know if they're useable until I try them. Unfortunately, I don't have enough to try a trial. At the moment The white 'E' of M8+EM will have to be hand painted, as indeed would any yellow aircraft codes, if I decided to use them.

 

[Crimea_River]

Gerry, I'll take another look at what I have for decals. Does a ZG 1 Wespe scheme appeal to you?

 

[Erich]

just a thought Gerry, but you could do a Bf 110G-2 without the full lettered code. use the 3U or M8 + then a colored numeral of your choice. this from December 1943 through spring of 44. think there are a few pics of some of these birds on Lucky's 110G thread ?

 

[Gerry]

Yup, both suggestions I would consider. Need to do some more investigation, though.

 

[A4K]

Keep at it mate, it'll be worth it in the end. Looking forward to seeing what scheme you decide on.