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**** DONE: 1/48 TBM-1C Grumman Avenger VC-13 - Carrier Aircraft GB
- Thread starter Crimea_River
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Oh if you are going to do the Anti Submarine Warfare Avenger aka the North Atlantic scheme here is a little tip.
The color calls out for Dark Gull Grey over Flat White.. Problem is that when you do that it turns out like this:
Picture doesn't show it too but the white will appear to your eyes in person as too stark for the scale. Best bet is to dirty your mixture a little which will also act like weathered paint. I made a mixture of Flat White and FS36622 Camouflage Grey (for me I did it roughly 25% Flat White and 75% Camo Grey) to get that nice dulled white look. Also most of the North Atlantic birds where very well maintained and did not get too dirty. Exhaust stains on the Avenger are almost non-existent due to the placement and angle of the exhaust tips. But the Avenger was known to show oil leaks.. Well enough of be blabbing on here is a pic as reference:
Note nicely weathered with oil leaks, these birds do not exhibit exhaust stains like you would see on the Hellcat. Dark splattered staining aft of exhaust tips is excessive oil.
FS36622 Camo Grey Model Master Enamel:
The color calls out for Dark Gull Grey over Flat White.. Problem is that when you do that it turns out like this:
Picture doesn't show it too but the white will appear to your eyes in person as too stark for the scale. Best bet is to dirty your mixture a little which will also act like weathered paint. I made a mixture of Flat White and FS36622 Camouflage Grey (for me I did it roughly 25% Flat White and 75% Camo Grey) to get that nice dulled white look. Also most of the North Atlantic birds where very well maintained and did not get too dirty. Exhaust stains on the Avenger are almost non-existent due to the placement and angle of the exhaust tips. But the Avenger was known to show oil leaks.. Well enough of be blabbing on here is a pic as reference:
Note nicely weathered with oil leaks, these birds do not exhibit exhaust stains like you would see on the Hellcat. Dark splattered staining aft of exhaust tips is excessive oil.
FS36622 Camo Grey Model Master Enamel:
- Thread starter
- #44
Crimea_River
Marshal
Great info, thanks. I was planning to gray up the white a bit per your suggestion. I also do this with pure black for the same reason.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Great info! 
Vic Balshaw
Major General
Good bits of info there guys.
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- #49
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks for the info guys.
I had painted what I thought to be Bronze Green last week by using black with Zinc Chromate Green, a mix I used for the Curtis P-40 cockpit colour but now that I've seen these examples, I'm going to redo it. I'll mix a batch from various paints I already have.
I had painted what I thought to be Bronze Green last week by using black with Zinc Chromate Green, a mix I used for the Curtis P-40 cockpit colour but now that I've seen these examples, I'm going to redo it. I'll mix a batch from various paints I already have.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Andy, if you're familiar with the traditional Land Rover green, then that's called 'Bronze Green' also, and is very close to the US colour, although of course in gloss, rather than semi-matt. I normally mix it, using Humbrol enamels, with Dark Green No.30 (or satin 163), with a spot of yellow, three spots of Dark Earth, and two spots of Blue No. 26, adding black as required. Not very precise, but looks right when it looks right - if you know what I mean!
according to the Humbrol color chart is the H75, says Terry is the green Land Rover, according to some sources is the FS 14050 but I opted more for the FS 34083, which is very similar to that used for U.S. vehicles inside army, color is very similar to that used by the P-40 n of the raaf, interestingly is the same as RLM83, in the page of IPMS stockholm the bronze green is fs34094, is obtained according to this mixture:
Hu 6 parts: 1 part 116 + Hu: Hu 95 + 2 parts: 80.
Hu 6 parts: 1 part 116 + Hu: Hu 95 + 2 parts: 80.
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The IPMS Stockholm site says..
Grumman TBF/TBM Avenger
In earlier production models TBF-1 and TBF-1C, the crew compartment was finished in two colours - Bronze Green forward from the bulkhead in front of the turret with Interior Green for the rear crew areas. Grumman Grey was used inside the cowling.
In a later set of Erection Maintenance manuals, Dull Dark Green replaced the Bronze Green in the cockpit.
The TBM-1C and TBM-3 series aircraft built by the Eastern Aircraft Division of General Motors had everything from the inside of the cowling all the way back painted Interior Green.
In common with the general Navy practice the wheel bays, undercarriage legs, wheel hubs, landing flap bays, etc. were all finished in the lower surface colour throughout the Avenger production.
Bronze Green
Like Zinc Chromate, the term Bronze Green is generic and describes a dark green finish obtained using oxidized bronze as a pigment. Still used today, the term is another example of a name designating a chemical composition becoming the name of a colour. Many people associate the word Bronze with red-brown colour, but this is not the case for Bronze Green. The pigment itself contains mostly Copper Carbonate, a compound responsible for the green patina often seen on old Bronze monuments.
Dana Bell was the first to unveil the existence and use of these colours in Air Force Colors, Vol 1 almost twenty years ago. Although it is now generally agreed that Bronze Green was widely used for cockpits, we still cannot claim to have the answers to all the questions about Bronze Green and its successor colour - Dark Dull Green.
Bronze Green was specified as standard for U.S. Army cockpits in the late 1930s, but was also used by the Navy. Grumman and Republic seem to have used Bronze Green extensively, possibly more than other manufacturers. This may be attributed to both companies being located in the Long Island area, subcontracting paints form the same sources.
Dark Dull Green
Dull Dark Green was an outgrowth of Bronze Green introduced in September 1942. When introduced, Dull Dark Green was intended as a substitute/replacement for Bronze Green. There has been much confusion about the difference between the two colours. Without being conclusive, it would appear that the shades were very similar, with Bronze Green being slightly darker and semi-gloss. The sheen of Bronze Green was one reason why the all-matt alternative was sought.
When issued, the Dull Dark Green was to be used for tactical aircraft with enclosed crew cabins - i.e. bombers. However, it seems to have gained much greater popularity than intended by the ANA officials. The use of Dull Dark Green can be confirmed for cockpits of F4U Corsairs, later-production Avengers, P-51s, and P-47s as well as forward crew areas of B-17s, B-24s and B-29s. Interestingly, the use of Dull Dark Green in fighters ignored the general specifications calling for interior green in those aircraft. FS 34092 seems to be a reasonable match for Dull Dark Green, with a comment that the original colour was slightly darker.
Grumman Grey
Grumman was unique to use their own, non-standard primer on all Grumman aircraft. In modern literature it is often referred to as Grumman Grey.
FS 36440 is believed to be a reasonable match for Grumman Grey.
Interior Green (ANA 611)
In September 1943, US Navy specified a Zinc Chromate and Lamp Black mixture to a colour standard, which became a standard ANA 611 Interior Green. The instruction was an after-the-fact attempt to standardize a variety of greens being used to paint crew areas.
The formal name Interior Green came along with ANA Bulletin No.137 issued at the time, which designated black-tinted Zinc Chromate primer as ANA 611 Interior Green. Of note is that the Interior Green was no longer to contain aluminium paste.
In time, this colour's use and mixture became more widespread than the others. However, the eventual transition period leaves a lot of space for speculation. Because of the previous (and mounting up) ambiguities in colour specifications, it might have happened that the standard Interior Green didn't look very different from any formula that a manufacturer had used before, and today it would still be difficult to say which formula was used to make a sample.
FS 34151 is believed to closely match ANA 611 Interior Green.
Grumman TBF/TBM Avenger
In earlier production models TBF-1 and TBF-1C, the crew compartment was finished in two colours - Bronze Green forward from the bulkhead in front of the turret with Interior Green for the rear crew areas. Grumman Grey was used inside the cowling.
In a later set of Erection Maintenance manuals, Dull Dark Green replaced the Bronze Green in the cockpit.
The TBM-1C and TBM-3 series aircraft built by the Eastern Aircraft Division of General Motors had everything from the inside of the cowling all the way back painted Interior Green.
In common with the general Navy practice the wheel bays, undercarriage legs, wheel hubs, landing flap bays, etc. were all finished in the lower surface colour throughout the Avenger production.
Bronze Green
Like Zinc Chromate, the term Bronze Green is generic and describes a dark green finish obtained using oxidized bronze as a pigment. Still used today, the term is another example of a name designating a chemical composition becoming the name of a colour. Many people associate the word Bronze with red-brown colour, but this is not the case for Bronze Green. The pigment itself contains mostly Copper Carbonate, a compound responsible for the green patina often seen on old Bronze monuments.
Dana Bell was the first to unveil the existence and use of these colours in Air Force Colors, Vol 1 almost twenty years ago. Although it is now generally agreed that Bronze Green was widely used for cockpits, we still cannot claim to have the answers to all the questions about Bronze Green and its successor colour - Dark Dull Green.
Bronze Green was specified as standard for U.S. Army cockpits in the late 1930s, but was also used by the Navy. Grumman and Republic seem to have used Bronze Green extensively, possibly more than other manufacturers. This may be attributed to both companies being located in the Long Island area, subcontracting paints form the same sources.
Dark Dull Green
Dull Dark Green was an outgrowth of Bronze Green introduced in September 1942. When introduced, Dull Dark Green was intended as a substitute/replacement for Bronze Green. There has been much confusion about the difference between the two colours. Without being conclusive, it would appear that the shades were very similar, with Bronze Green being slightly darker and semi-gloss. The sheen of Bronze Green was one reason why the all-matt alternative was sought.
When issued, the Dull Dark Green was to be used for tactical aircraft with enclosed crew cabins - i.e. bombers. However, it seems to have gained much greater popularity than intended by the ANA officials. The use of Dull Dark Green can be confirmed for cockpits of F4U Corsairs, later-production Avengers, P-51s, and P-47s as well as forward crew areas of B-17s, B-24s and B-29s. Interestingly, the use of Dull Dark Green in fighters ignored the general specifications calling for interior green in those aircraft. FS 34092 seems to be a reasonable match for Dull Dark Green, with a comment that the original colour was slightly darker.
Grumman Grey
Grumman was unique to use their own, non-standard primer on all Grumman aircraft. In modern literature it is often referred to as Grumman Grey.
FS 36440 is believed to be a reasonable match for Grumman Grey.
Interior Green (ANA 611)
In September 1943, US Navy specified a Zinc Chromate and Lamp Black mixture to a colour standard, which became a standard ANA 611 Interior Green. The instruction was an after-the-fact attempt to standardize a variety of greens being used to paint crew areas.
The formal name Interior Green came along with ANA Bulletin No.137 issued at the time, which designated black-tinted Zinc Chromate primer as ANA 611 Interior Green. Of note is that the Interior Green was no longer to contain aluminium paste.
In time, this colour's use and mixture became more widespread than the others. However, the eventual transition period leaves a lot of space for speculation. Because of the previous (and mounting up) ambiguities in colour specifications, it might have happened that the standard Interior Green didn't look very different from any formula that a manufacturer had used before, and today it would still be difficult to say which formula was used to make a sample.
FS 34151 is believed to closely match ANA 611 Interior Green.
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And something more..
Credit must also go to Dana Bell. His article in the October 1997 FineScale Modeler magazine should be required reading. His 3 volume set Air Force Colors contains some useful info.
TBF-1 / TBF-1C, Avenger. Cockpit: Exactly like the Accurate Miniatures instructions show. FS 34058 Bronze Green forward from the bulkhead with the window (in front of the turret). FS 34151 Interior Green for the rear crew areas. Light Gray (Grumman Gray) inside the cowling, (FS 36440 is very close) and accessory area. The stainless steel 'Dishpan' firewall was unpainted and often quite bright. Torpedo bay: FS 34151. Remember on all of these a/c the general rule is that the wheel bays, landing gear struts, wheel centers, landing flap bays, etc. are the under surface color. On the Avenger the inside of the flap itself was the upper surface color with the inside of the flap well on the under surface of the wing being the bottom color.
TBM-1, -1C, TBM-3C, -3E Avenger. Cockpit: FS 34151 Interior Green. This also included the crew areas and fuselage interior. Early TBM-1s and –1C's had cowling interiors like those of the TBF-1 with Non-Specular (flat) Light Gray from the firewall forward except for the dishpan. Later production aircraft would have had everything from the inside of the cowling all the way back in interior green. The landing gear and bays were the undersurface color, i.e. Insignia white bottom would be white. Glossy Sea Blue TBM-3 a/c would have GSB landing gear and flap interiors. The inside of the flaps would be similar to the TBF-1 above.
Credit must also go to Dana Bell. His article in the October 1997 FineScale Modeler magazine should be required reading. His 3 volume set Air Force Colors contains some useful info.
TBF-1 / TBF-1C, Avenger. Cockpit: Exactly like the Accurate Miniatures instructions show. FS 34058 Bronze Green forward from the bulkhead with the window (in front of the turret). FS 34151 Interior Green for the rear crew areas. Light Gray (Grumman Gray) inside the cowling, (FS 36440 is very close) and accessory area. The stainless steel 'Dishpan' firewall was unpainted and often quite bright. Torpedo bay: FS 34151. Remember on all of these a/c the general rule is that the wheel bays, landing gear struts, wheel centers, landing flap bays, etc. are the under surface color. On the Avenger the inside of the flap itself was the upper surface color with the inside of the flap well on the under surface of the wing being the bottom color.
TBM-1, -1C, TBM-3C, -3E Avenger. Cockpit: FS 34151 Interior Green. This also included the crew areas and fuselage interior. Early TBM-1s and –1C's had cowling interiors like those of the TBF-1 with Non-Specular (flat) Light Gray from the firewall forward except for the dishpan. Later production aircraft would have had everything from the inside of the cowling all the way back in interior green. The landing gear and bays were the undersurface color, i.e. Insignia white bottom would be white. Glossy Sea Blue TBM-3 a/c would have GSB landing gear and flap interiors. The inside of the flaps would be similar to the TBF-1 above.
Good stuff Wojtek!
- Thread starter
- #55
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks very much for this information my friend! I have plenty to work with now and will need to get on with the build as soon as I finish my Spit V.
Vic Balshaw
Major General
Many thanks Wojtek, all that info will come in handy one day and has been digested by my data file.
- Thread starter
- #58
Crimea_River
Marshal
OK, it's high time I got back to this one. I started by repainting the areas designated as "Bronze Green" using a mix of about 5 parts Tamiya XF-50 Filed Blue with 3 parts XF-26 Deep Green. The pics below show the results of this session. With the basic colour done, a few drops of black were added to the mix to highlight shadow and then some white added to the mix highlighted the high points. The latter was done both with the airbrush and hairy stick. The leather headrest and arm rests were painted and some of the black electrical boxes and cables have been started. More work is yet to be done to highlight details of these areas.
One question I have is this. Previous posts have confirmed the TBF's use of bronze green from the bulkhead just before the turret through to the firewall area. The AM instructions relfect this but call up the bulkhead itself to be Interior Green. If the bulkhead was the delineation point between the two interior colours, does it make sense that it is Interior Green on both sides or should it be Bronze on the forward face and Interior on the aft? I'm assuming the latter.
The AM kit uses a clear part for the instrument panel so this makes for a unique approach to painting this area. I've started by putting a dab of gloss white enamel in the instrument recesses and will allow this to fully dry before spraying a coat of flat black over the entire part. The dials will then be scratched in through the black to reveal the white, hopefully in a convincing manner. The instrument faces will then be completed with a dab of Future.
That's it for now gents.
One question I have is this. Previous posts have confirmed the TBF's use of bronze green from the bulkhead just before the turret through to the firewall area. The AM instructions relfect this but call up the bulkhead itself to be Interior Green. If the bulkhead was the delineation point between the two interior colours, does it make sense that it is Interior Green on both sides or should it be Bronze on the forward face and Interior on the aft? I'm assuming the latter.
The AM kit uses a clear part for the instrument panel so this makes for a unique approach to painting this area. I've started by putting a dab of gloss white enamel in the instrument recesses and will allow this to fully dry before spraying a coat of flat black over the entire part. The dials will then be scratched in through the black to reveal the white, hopefully in a convincing manner. The instrument faces will then be completed with a dab of Future.
That's it for now gents.
ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
Cockpit is looking good, Andy.....
Sailor on...
Charles
Sailor on...
Charles
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