Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?
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Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
I think that you should check the German figures, before airily dismissing the British repair organisation. From June to December 1940, 1802 new Hurricanes were produced, and 752 were repaired; in the same time 987 Spitfires were produced, and 470 repaired. How many 109s 110s were repaired, and put back into service, during those same months? I don't know, and would like to know.
Edgar
Edgar
On Bartels
I hazely recall reading somewhere that he wasn't a most accurate claimer and cleraly there seems to be problem with his 15 Nov 43 claims on P-38s see http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/november-15-1943-p-38-afficiandos-618.html
Juha
I hazely recall reading somewhere that he wasn't a most accurate claimer and cleraly there seems to be problem with his 15 Nov 43 claims on P-38s see http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/november-15-1943-p-38-afficiandos-618.html
Juha
A bit OT
but here has been some talks on JG 5 pilots, if you want to see a LW veteran who operated up north see: Karl Fritz Schlossstein vieraili Suomessa - Ilta-Sanomat
At first there is a commercial, then the proper program began, mostly in Finnish but if you are patient you'll hear also short segments of Schlossstein's answers in German.
Juha
but here has been some talks on JG 5 pilots, if you want to see a LW veteran who operated up north see: Karl Fritz Schlossstein vieraili Suomessa - Ilta-Sanomat
At first there is a commercial, then the proper program began, mostly in Finnish but if you are patient you'll hear also short segments of Schlossstein's answers in German.
Juha
drgondog
Major
MACRs for 8th AF losses, KJ reports for crash locations, Tony Woods Lists for LW awards, 357 and 355FG Battle Damage Reports for April 24
claidemore
Senior Airman
Why do you need proof to discredit Bartels claims? You don't seem to need proof to discredit Pokryshkins solo kills, which he didn't even officially claim. If Bartel has claims that can't be substantiated, and you believe him, then you also have to believe Pokryshkins claims.
Hello Ratsel
interesting conclusion, if 82nd FG didn't loss any P-38s and 1st FG lost only one on 15 Nov 43 , see: ms4311a and 1st FG lost only 2 P-38s in combat during the whole Nov 43, see: Untitled Document
from which units were the 14 P-38s claimed by IV./JG 27 on 15 Nov 43? After all we don't even know if the only known P-38 loss on that day was caused by IV./JG 27.
Juha
drgondog
Major
Ratsel - here is an example of my research on 355th Losses. I have the same on the 357th FG but invite you to do your own research on topics such as this?
44-04-24 Norman,Lt.Robert KIA Crashed at ~ 1400 at Sankt-Wolfgand near Walkraiburg, 24 mi ESE of Munich. Macr states OSR but pic shows OSG
357FS OSG 42-106433 OPS
MACR 4320 UNK-A MACR 4320,J.Hey,LW Rpt J-937, Whitten L
Hillman,2Lt.Howard KIA Crash site near Taufkirchen Vils, S Munich ~ 20 mi from Norman.
357FS OSC 43-7103 OPS-EA
MACR 4317 UNK-A LW Rpt J-956 and 884 Whitten Letter
Demers,Lt.Raymond KIA Lost wing diving on barge ~1420 near Bingen/Rhein River. Macr states OSG, pic shows OSR
357FS OSR 42-106723 OPS
MACR 4321 STRCT MACR 4321, King report. Whitten Letter
Sturm,2Lt.Jack POW Shot down by 109 E.Lake Wessling @ 1400-1415 ~20mi SW Munich. Flying Yellow 3 and last seen about 1330 NE Munich. Probably downed by Stiegler - 11/JG27
357FS OSN 43-7140 OPS
MACR 4318 AIR MACR 4318.LW Rpt J-934. Whitten Letter
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 67 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.4
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 68 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 69 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.6
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 70 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.7
'According to the history of the 1st FG, on Nov. 15th, 1943 the group flew escort for some B-24s attacking the Athens area. One pilot is listed as missing though the cause for his loss isn't covered. Though there may have been some P-38's on the date that may have been wrecked as total CAT E damaged/destroyed that were not mentioned in the diaries.
XII Air Support Command B-25s attack Athens/Kalamaki Airdrome. Also, while Fifteenth Air Force B-24s attack the Athens/Eleusis Airdrome at about 1300 hours, P-38 escorts from the 82nd Fighter Group stave off attacks by GAF fighters, damaging six and downing an FW 190 and a Ju 87.
No mention is made of USAAF losses but the info contained in this reference is obviously incomplete, as no mention at all is made of 1st FG activity on this date.'
conclusion: how does one make sence of incomplete, inaccurate, Allied documents? Well, looking at Luftwaffe diaries is a good start.
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 68 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 4.000 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 69 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.6
15.11.43 Fw. Heinrich Bartels: 70 11./JG 27 P-38 S.E. Kalamáki: 3.500 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.7
'According to the history of the 1st FG, on Nov. 15th, 1943 the group flew escort for some B-24s attacking the Athens area. One pilot is listed as missing though the cause for his loss isn't covered. Though there may have been some P-38's on the date that may have been wrecked as total CAT E damaged/destroyed that were not mentioned in the diaries.
XII Air Support Command B-25s attack Athens/Kalamaki Airdrome. Also, while Fifteenth Air Force B-24s attack the Athens/Eleusis Airdrome at about 1300 hours, P-38 escorts from the 82nd Fighter Group stave off attacks by GAF fighters, damaging six and downing an FW 190 and a Ju 87.
No mention is made of USAAF losses but the info contained in this reference is obviously incomplete, as no mention at all is made of 1st FG activity on this date.'
conclusion: how does one make sence of incomplete, inaccurate, Allied documents? Well, looking at Luftwaffe diaries is a good start.
parsifal
Colonel
i have not studdied these documents at all, but the extracts you have posted look to me to be reasonable. "Some P-38s ,ay have been wrecked on the date as total CAT E damaged and destroyed" Might be referring to aircraft removed from group control and scrapped or otherwise removed from squadron controil. It in no way supports the notion that the aircraft were destroyed by enemy action.
With regard to your second bolded statement, perhaps ther was no 1FG activity on that day l
With regard to your second bolded statement, perhaps ther was no 1FG activity on that day l
Erich
the old Sage
I own a copy of the US 82nd fg history and it states just for the record 1 Ju 87 destroyed, 5 Me 109's damaged, 1 Fw 190 damged (from what unit who knows). US losses over Greece were only 1 B-25. so for the record there were NO P-38's lost on the 15th of November, this is a statement made in the 82nd fg history for all US 15th AF units.
I have found this in general for possible claims but non confirmation for all S/E LW fg's in any theater, Bartel's, Marseille and other top aces are no exception, I will just give it to the quickness and chaos of turns, overshooting, battle nervousness and not being able to follow victims to the ground.
like I said nothing is foolproof until you get both sides accurately drawn up, Bill knows that with his own re-do of the 355th fg book we have corresponded at some length about US to LW losses and claims and of course very interesting topic of discussions have come up even on this site the past 2-3 years. again I point out and will just admit I am trying to place accurate info on the JG 301 book by Reschke as there was no positive cross-checking of US bomber/fighter formations encountered in fact we have dates that do not even correspond with US activity over the Reich in which claims of destruction both fighter and bomber are made
I have found this in general for possible claims but non confirmation for all S/E LW fg's in any theater, Bartel's, Marseille and other top aces are no exception, I will just give it to the quickness and chaos of turns, overshooting, battle nervousness and not being able to follow victims to the ground.
like I said nothing is foolproof until you get both sides accurately drawn up, Bill knows that with his own re-do of the 355th fg book we have corresponded at some length about US to LW losses and claims and of course very interesting topic of discussions have come up even on this site the past 2-3 years. again I point out and will just admit I am trying to place accurate info on the JG 301 book by Reschke as there was no positive cross-checking of US bomber/fighter formations encountered in fact we have dates that do not even correspond with US activity over the Reich in which claims of destruction both fighter and bomber are made
Hello Ratsel
really, as Erich wrote, he had not find any 82nd FG losses from unit history. And as you know, LW confirmation criteria demanded observed destruction of the enemy a/c. So what happed to the 13 P-38 pilots?
On your 1st quote, the first part of it is identical to Lightning Guy message on 01-24-2005, but from where is the last part of it, that written on bold letters?
The second quote is from Hammel's 'Air War Europa Chronology 1942-1945' for 15 November 1943", it doesn't usually give USAAF losses, that is its weak point, but that isn't problem with docus but with Hammel's way to write his book.
Have you tried to find out the MARCs or how you have come to conclusion that Allied docus are inaccurate and incomplete in this case? Did Germans recover P-38 wrecks or how else would LW diaries help to find out USAAF real losses?
Juha
really, as Erich wrote, he had not find any 82nd FG losses from unit history. And as you know, LW confirmation criteria demanded observed destruction of the enemy a/c. So what happed to the 13 P-38 pilots?
On your 1st quote, the first part of it is identical to Lightning Guy message on 01-24-2005, but from where is the last part of it, that written on bold letters?
The second quote is from Hammel's 'Air War Europa Chronology 1942-1945' for 15 November 1943", it doesn't usually give USAAF losses, that is its weak point, but that isn't problem with docus but with Hammel's way to write his book.
Have you tried to find out the MARCs or how you have come to conclusion that Allied docus are inaccurate and incomplete in this case? Did Germans recover P-38 wrecks or how else would LW diaries help to find out USAAF real losses?
Juha
drgondog
Major
The 8th AF meticulously recorded lost (DNR), Damaged, Salvaged in Every Mission Summary Report which was a consolidated roll up from each Fighter and Bomber Group Daily Mission Summary. Whether 'with or w/o reasoning' per your definition, the category of damage was defined and followed as well as meticulous coding of the type of damage.
Disappearing without explanation? Yes - many of which are identified and cross referenced by LW KU and KJ Reports - and attached to the Missing Aircrew Report folder
Erich
the old Sage
so am assuming you do not have their history then ? I do not but feel confident what I just posted. again this is nothing new what appearance show in the heat of battle for both sides a huge problem is the lack of gun cameras fitted to even the LW aces A/C and only going by their private words and if a wingman was in the area.
what source(s0 are you using for the 1st fg Ratsel ? am assuming also you are using Priens LW history volume on III./IV./JG 27 for your response or Woods Freiburg listing which has some big inaccuracies and I can name a huge one for JG 301 as an example 56 kills on 26 November 1944 when we know they had a total of 21 B-24's confirmed by US sources 491st with 16 and the 445th with 5 plus a possibility of 1-2 Mustangs. Bill of course and I have talked till we are tired of talking of this mission but there are still many unanswered questions .............. this is on old but quite informative posts on this very forum
what source(s0 are you using for the 1st fg Ratsel ? am assuming also you are using Priens LW history volume on III./IV./JG 27 for your response or Woods Freiburg listing which has some big inaccuracies and I can name a huge one for JG 301 as an example 56 kills on 26 November 1944 when we know they had a total of 21 B-24's confirmed by US sources 491st with 16 and the 445th with 5 plus a possibility of 1-2 Mustangs. Bill of course and I have talked till we are tired of talking of this mission but there are still many unanswered questions .............. this is on old but quite informative posts on this very forum
Erich,
For JG 27 reference I always refer to JAGDGESCHWADER 27 Die Dokumentation uber den Einsatz an allen Fronten 1939 - 1945, Hans Ring Werner Girbigs (Excellent book by the way), and to some extent Priens volume III./IV./JG 27. Also, as aways Woods Website ( even with some errors). As far as sources for the 1st/FG well, thats a bit more difficult. Seems the 15th/AF holds the key to that. So anybody who wants to chime in with 12th 15th airforce information would be greatly appreciated. For that matter, any information on all the Various P-38 fighter groups that could have been operating in the area. I sincerely believe Bartels shot down the four P-38s on 15.11.43, its just a matter of finding which P-38s.
For JG 27 reference I always refer to JAGDGESCHWADER 27 Die Dokumentation uber den Einsatz an allen Fronten 1939 - 1945, Hans Ring Werner Girbigs (Excellent book by the way), and to some extent Priens volume III./IV./JG 27. Also, as aways Woods Website ( even with some errors). As far as sources for the 1st/FG well, thats a bit more difficult. Seems the 15th/AF holds the key to that. So anybody who wants to chime in with 12th 15th airforce information would be greatly appreciated. For that matter, any information on all the Various P-38 fighter groups that could have been operating in the area. I sincerely believe Bartels shot down the four P-38s on 15.11.43, its just a matter of finding which P-38s.
Good luck! I've wasted far to much time and effort over the last twenty five years on this sort of thing.
Cheers
Steve
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
True, Steve, We seem to agree that Hartmann was an Ace in every sense of the word. The information provided in this thread is amazing.
Cheers
John
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