Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

[Erich]

try working both sides system for over 45 years, not as impossible as it seems as there is much more the last 10 years available than ever before.

Ratsel. Girbig's book is too breif get Priens/Stemmer's work it far surpasses it and digs just into the two gruppen on JG 27 I mentioned I have the whole set as well as JG 1/11 most of JG 3. Sturmgruppen volumes by E. Mombeek which is primarily JG 4 and strumstaffel, etc................there are of course others obtained over too many years.

 

[parsifal]

45 years....youve been at this awhile then Erich.....well done

 

[Ratsel]

Erich,

I'll keep an eye on that book. I'm currently working on a colour profile of WNr.13 0359 based on some other Gruppe IV G-10's.

found this:

' 447th BS War Diary: 14 planes scheduled to participate in a raid over ATHENS. All
planes returned early, failed to rendezvous with fighters. Photo Freddie back again today
(1030). He should have gotten some good shots as all planes were lined up at end of
runway ready for take-off. Telegram on Bulletin Board which was sent from Wing: TO:. '

so the question: what happened to the fighters?

 

[drgondog]

Erich,

For JG 27 reference I always refer to JAGDGESCHWADER 27 Die Dokumentation uber den Einsatz an allen Fronten 1939 - 1945, Hans Ring Werner Girbigs (Excellent book by the way), and to some extent Priens volume III./IV./JG 27. Also, as aways Woods Website ( even with some errors). As far as sources for the 1st/FG well, thats a bit more difficult. Seems the 15th/AF holds the key to that. So anybody who wants to chime in with 12th 15th airforce information would be greatly appreciated. For that matter, any information on all the Various P-38 fighter groups that could have been operating in the area. I sincerely believe Bartels shot down the four P-38s on 15.11.43, its just a matter of finding which P-38s.

For these dates you need 12th AF records. 12th AF Fighter Command didn't become 15th AF until spring 1944

Ratsel for a belief system to be supported when research on Credits to claims, you should suspend belief until all the facts support your conclusions? Have you done any research on MACR's for November 15th?

 

[Ratsel]

well the quote in post #383 was taken from the 12th/AF History diaries dated 15.11.43. The fighter escorts failed to rendezvous. Ergo, something happened to those P-38's. If you know more by all means please post what you know.

 

[Erich]

Bill and I have both used this before footnote.com was available for macr's listing(s)

go to: U.S. Army Air Forces of World War II > Home and check their database out. you can click in the date start and ending of an operation and the US losses/macr's will be listed for the most part. essential if you want to see and at least start on the research hunt

 

[Ratsel]

yep, according to the site no 1st/FG P-38s were anywhere near Kalamaki. The search continues.

 

[Erich]

and since the thread is essentially about Herr Hartmann it might be interesting to find if listed the MACR's of those P-51's he has claimed to have shot down.

 

[Ratsel]

yep would be interesting to know. Prauge he shot down two and Ploesti he shot down three (according to Hartmann). As far as Bartels in Kalamaki it had to be 15th/AF P-38s that he shot down on 15.11.43.

 

[parsifal]

Is it possible the germans misidentified the aircraft over Kalamakis on that day....perhaps they werent P-38s at all?

 

[Ratsel]

Is it possible the germans misidentified the aircraft over Kalamakis on that day....perhaps they werent P-38s at all?

Anything is possible, adrenlene going, furious pace, four in two minutes he had to have snuck up on them... Otherwise I dunno what it could be mistaken for.... Beaufighter perhaps? Not that I have any basis for comparison but when I play IL-2 I'm pretty good at ID'ing a plane fairly fast. I'm sure the Germans were much better.


edit:

before it gets out of hand... I KNOW computer games are different then real life. so no hate mail please...

 

[marshall]

Anything is possible, adrenlene going, furious pace, four in two minutes he had to have snuck up on them... Otherwise I dunno what it could be mistaken for.... Beaufighter perhaps? Not that I have any basis for comparison but when I play IL-2 I'm pretty good at ID'ing a plane fairly fast. I'm sure the Germans were much better.

I wouldn't be comparing computer game to real life.

While reading much about ww2 air combat I had the impression that identification of enemy planes during the war was quite a big problem. Friendly fire incidents, claming non existing aircrafts or some prototypes, general overclaiming, it seems that fighter pilots were rather a poor source of information.

 

[stona]

The doctrine in all airforces was that fighters should always identify enemy aircraft before engaging them. Aircraft recognition was treated very seriously.
Early in the war a court of enquiry in Scotland which was investigating "friendly" fire incidents ruled that bombers and coastal command aircraft returning to Britain must identify themselves to fighters. Dowding's response on 21 January 1940 was "This is an intolerable doctrine and I am surprised that responsible officers should have set their names to it. Fighters must always be sure that their target is an enemy before opening fire."
The onus was on pilots to identify the aircraft they were seeking to engage. I think it is unbelievable that Luftwaffe pilots would mis-identify P-38s,which are distinctive looking aircraft, as some other type.
There were of course mistakes. Friendly fire incidents still happen today with all the technological assistance available.
Cheers
Steve

 

[marshall]

I think it is unbelievable that Luftwaffe pilots would mis-identify P-38s,which are distinctive looking aircraft, as some other type.

Yes, P-38 is a special case. Though when I think about events like "Battle of Barking Creek" I have the impression that identification wasn't easy.

 

[stona]

The battle of Barking Creek happened days after the beginning of the war,for the British. It was a result of several unfortunate failings and factors. The air defence system hadn't yet been tested "for real" and the nation was gripped by a slight hysteria to which the young pilots were not immune. All of 56 Sqn. along with elements of four other squadrons were scrambled in what can kindly be described as an over enthusiastic reaction to a perceived threat. Most of these men had never seen a Luftwaffe aircraft. It was a disaster waiting to happen,not that this would be any consolation for the unfortunate P/O Hulton-Harrop.

Air to air incidents were much less common than cases of anti aircraft units opening fire on just about anything that flew over them. It's one of the few things I've ever heard the formidable ladies of the A.T.A. complain about. They had to fly within sight of the ground and then they got shot at!
Cheers
Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

Anything is possible, adrenlene going, furious pace, four in two minutes he had to have snuck up on them... Otherwise I dunno what it could be mistaken for.... Beaufighter perhaps? Not that I have any basis for comparison but when I play IL-2 I'm pretty good at ID'ing a plane fairly fast. I'm sure the Germans were much better.


edit:

before it gets out of hand... I KNOW computer games are different then real life. so no hate mail please...

Perhaps if the computer game started firing back at you then you might have more of a problem

 

[Readie]

Perhaps if the computer game started firing back at you ...QUOTE]

I'm sure that's planned into the next generation of computer games.
Shades of Total Recall perhaps?
Cheers
John

 

[Maximowitz]

For those interested there's some nice info and photos pertaining to Bartels over on the 12 O' Clock High Forum..

 

[Kryten]

I think I see where Ratsels 109 obsession comes from , I also play Il2 online, it's good fun but should be taken with a huge dose of salt as to flight models and especially damage modelling!

It's actually easier to ID a real plane than it is in the game due to pixelation, however, sitting in your house with a beer one side and a bag of crisps the other battling your mates creates zero fear or anxiety, I can easily see how a blue on blue could happen, whilst i was an aircraft recognition instructor in the army I had to mark numerous exams where people mistook such diverse aircraft as a Foxbat and a Tomcat, I can only sympathise with the guys who had to do it whilst flying an aircraft with not exactly brilliant visibility, holding station with your wingman, the gnawing anxiety of watching your tail and thats wthout G force throwing you about inside the plane!
I often am thankfull I was not one of that generation!

 

[parsifal]

IMO the most well known misidentification that I can think of was Sakai over guadacanal. Mistook a group of TBFs for SBDS. They bunched, he thought they had not seen him. He attacked the "SBDs" from their weak spot, below and from behind, received a nasty shock when he saw the underside ball turrets open on him. That mistake almost cost him his life