so what... Gregory 'Pappy' Boyington use to fly drunk sometimes during WWII.
Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?
- Thread starter paradoxguy
- Start date
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Hello George
first of all Rudel was one of kind. On the quality of Kacha's pages, IMHO it is very good for a site which is, I think, based on secondary sources.
IMHO what is clear than all those fighter pilots with 1000 or moore sorties had began operational flying earlier than Hartmann. Barkhorn and Krupinski (1104 and 1100 combat sorties) had flew combat sorties even before the beginning of Oper Barbarossa, but of course Barkhorn was rather inactive in 45. Hackl (about 1000 combat sorties) was pre-war regular who fought throughout the war but was badly wounded twice, Rudorffer (1000 + combat sorties) also flew practically through the whole war.
If we look those high Eastern Front claimers who had fairly short careers, Batz (237 victories) amassed 445 combat sorties in 2⅟4 years, Beerenbrock (117 victories) amassed appr. 400 sorties in 1⅔ years in front-line unit and Birker (117 victories) 284 sorties in 1⅟4 years, it seems that appr 300 sorties per year was more or less max for fighter pilots in the Eastern Front. IIRC ground attack and Stuka pilots could amass sorties faster rate.
Juha
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I suggest your read 'Bodenplatte' by Manrho and Putz. It list all the reasons for the Lw losses. Only seven (7) Lw a/c were destroyed by ground fire. There was a further twenty-two (22) damaged by ground fire. There was 271 a/c 60-100% (destroyed) and 65 0-59% (damaged).
(29/271) x 100 = 10.7%
more like 123/280 = 44%. all were either KIA,WIA, or bailed/OK with only a handfull making it back to base. where are you getting your info from? cause Manrho and Putz researched from all sides and their numbers are imo the most accurate.
in JG 53 for example: 14 hit by flak/aaa with only 2 returning to base. rest were eithe KIA, or WIA-bailed/POW-bailed.
kettbo
Senior Airman
hyvä päivää Juha,
Thank you for the extra information. Lots of good info on this site.
Regards,
George
thats a new one. I'm thinking Knoke..
I remember reading that after landing, 'they found him slumped over and thought he was wounded. but after opening the canopy and see no evidence of bullets.. they found he was fast asleep!'
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Franz Stigler..... also a strafer of sand dunes. There's a man who we can say definitely made fraudulent claims. He was lucky to avoid a court martial. Strange how the deference of post war "researchers" meant that he was never really challenged or cornered about it, at least not to my knowledge. Karl-Heinz Bendert,one of his accomplices,even went on to be awarded a RK. Bendert survived the war too but was also never really pressed on the JG 27 overclaiming.
Steve
Steve
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
at least he wasn't as bad as Caldwell... I believe 'Killer' had a coutmartial for various things and stripped of rank.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
On 4 July 1941 Caldwell saw a German pilot shoot and kill a close friend, Pilot Officer Donald Munro, who was descending to the ground in a parachute. This was a controversial practice, but was nevertheless common among some German and Allied pilots. One biographer, Kristin Alexander, suggests that it may have caused Caldwell's attitude to harden significantly. Months later, press officers and journalists popularised Caldwell's nickname of "Killer", which he disliked. One reason for the nickname was that he too shot enemy airmen after they parachuted out of aircraft. Caldwell commented many years later: "...there was no blood lust or anything about it like that. It was just a matter of not wanting them back to have another go at us. I never shot any who landed where they could be taken prisoner." (In later life, Caldwell said that his thoughts often turned to one Japanese airman or passenger, who survived Caldwell's last aerial victory but could not be rescued. A more commonly-cited reason for the nickname was his habit of using up ammunition left over at the end of sorties, to shoot up enemy troops and vehicles. During his war service, Caldwell wrote in a notebook: "it's your life or theirs. This is war."
Lifted from Wiki, an interesting remark made about 'war'
John
Lifted from Wiki, an interesting remark made about 'war'
John
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
Caldwell's court martial was a fit-up, with the authorities getting revenge for him and seven other senior officers resigning their commissions, due to (in their view) lives being wasted on strafing operations. The CM took place in January 1946, with him falsely accused of trafficking in liquor; he'd actually been bartering with the Americans, who were restricted by McArthur in their access to drink. Caldwell maintained that it was the only way to get certain American materials and that he made no personal gain from it, but was found guilty and reduced one rank, losing one day's pay as a result. He left the RAAF in March 1946, having risen from Pilot Officer, in the desert, in 1941, to Group Captain; he is believed to be the only serving, operational, pilot whose logbook was endorsed by an AOC-in-C (Air Chief Marshal Tedder,) who said,"A fine commander, an excellent leader and a first class shot."
Edgar
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Flight Journal Magazine February 2006 Issue features a wonderful story about the 368th FG and Tote Talbott. This was wrote by Historian Tim Grace with Lt. General Tote Talbott.
"When Chivalry Was Not Dead"
Thunderbolt pilot earns the ultimate praise
Drifting down in his parachute, his Thunderbolt a spiraling pyre of smoke and
flame below, "Tote" Talbott saw the four Messerschmitts coming toward him
and knew it was the end. He had just shot down two of their comrades, but as
the airplanes circled him, each pilot gave him a salute.
True warriors respect other warriors
TheMustangRider
Senior Airman
If memory serves me correctly, Hartmann had a similar experience while fighting in the west; when he went against 8th AF bomber and escort fighters his Messerschmitt ran out of fuel and he ended up floating down in a 'chute while P-51s circled around him.
It was on that mission I believe when he bounced and scored three or four P-51s of the total he would achieve during the war.
It was on that mission I believe when he bounced and scored three or four P-51s of the total he would achieve during the war.
TheMustangRider
Senior Airman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann#Fighting_the_United_States_Army_Air_Forces
Here it is in Wiki and yes, he downed 15th, not 8th AF Mustangs.
As skillful as he was, he was lucky too as his legend did not end that day on the hands on any of those P-51 pilots.
Here it is in Wiki and yes, he downed 15th, not 8th AF Mustangs.
As skillful as he was, he was lucky too as his legend did not end that day on the hands on any of those P-51 pilots.
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Hello MustangRider
Wiki is Wiki, here is more reliable list of Hartmann's claims Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann
only one P-51 during 44 plus one in early 45
Best way apart going to German archives is to check Wood's LW Eastern Front claim-lists-
Juha
Wiki is Wiki, here is more reliable list of Hartmann's claims Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann
only one P-51 during 44 plus one in early 45
Best way apart going to German archives is to check Wood's LW Eastern Front claim-lists-
Juha
