oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
No boat - "RON" and you're own room most of the time (AD2 and higher).
Indeed!
F-14 vs F-15 vs F-16
- Thread starter Soren
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Indeed!
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I've actually heard the same thing from several other people about the Strike Tomcat.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
oldcrow. One factor which should be considered about the infamous maintenance problems with the Tomcat. A lot of those were caused by the P&W engine which was intended only to be a interim engine. The GE engines solved a lot of the problems. In addition, the Strike Tomcat was going to be new manufacture which means a lot of the same electric and electronic technology the Super Hornet has and which is presumerably more maintenance free.. A point that Gillchrist makes is that an air group of strike Tomcats would yield three squadrons of Strike Aircraft which could almost instantly be three squadrons of fleet defense fighters.
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
That's a very compelling argument! I'd love to know whether the maintenance issues really were solved. If so, it does seem to come down in the end to political wrangling but then what doesn't?
Messy1
Master Sergeant
Found a little info on the Super Tomcat? Was this idea of upgrading the Tomcat design even remotely considered?
HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft!
HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft!
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
We blew it. The Tomcat story is a sad comedy of errors. I wish I had the energy to type a bunch of the excerpts from Gillchrist's book.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
They weren't infamous. I knew a lot of folks who worked on them and they were SOBs maintenance wise, and I'm not talkin only avionics.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
" Finally and of equal importance, the F14D represents the absolute state of the art in reliability and maintainability improvements. The synergism which this would represent in that all F14D air wing would be equally enormous especially in terms of logistics."
The above from Gillchrist in chapter 31, The F14D Super Tomcat.
All Tomcats were not alike. The first F14D was delivered in 1990. What came to be known as the first F14A was delivered in 1973. The vast majority of Tomcats were F14As and it had the "interim" engine built by P&W which had two fatal flaws, not enough thrust and poor compressor stall margin. It was not until November of 1987, that the first F14Plus with the new GE-F-110 reached the fleet. More than 40 aircraft were lost to crashes, most of which were caused by engine problems. Those engines were responsible for much of the maintenance problems and also the performance restrictions put in place on the Tomcat.
Not many new manufacture F14Ds were built but the program was in place and the airplanes were being built when the program was canceled in favor of the F18 E-F which is substantially less capable, essentially a new design and which was to have escalating developmental costs.
So we canceled a multi mission fighter with known performance capabilities and known costs for the development of a new airplane which we knew in many ways would be less capable and which had an unknown bottom line cost number. That decision may hasten the end of the Super Carrier.
The above from Gillchrist in chapter 31, The F14D Super Tomcat.
All Tomcats were not alike. The first F14D was delivered in 1990. What came to be known as the first F14A was delivered in 1973. The vast majority of Tomcats were F14As and it had the "interim" engine built by P&W which had two fatal flaws, not enough thrust and poor compressor stall margin. It was not until November of 1987, that the first F14Plus with the new GE-F-110 reached the fleet. More than 40 aircraft were lost to crashes, most of which were caused by engine problems. Those engines were responsible for much of the maintenance problems and also the performance restrictions put in place on the Tomcat.
Not many new manufacture F14Ds were built but the program was in place and the airplanes were being built when the program was canceled in favor of the F18 E-F which is substantially less capable, essentially a new design and which was to have escalating developmental costs.
So we canceled a multi mission fighter with known performance capabilities and known costs for the development of a new airplane which we knew in many ways would be less capable and which had an unknown bottom line cost number. That decision may hasten the end of the Super Carrier.
Last edited:
I'm only about 5 years late on commenting about this, but, I have a book somewhere around here that stated the Isreali's will not allow their F15 and F16 pilots to mock dogfight. The book states that the F15 pilots look down on F16 pilots as guys that washed out of the F15 program because they weren't good enough, SO, the F16 pilots now have a chip on their shoulder to prove that they and the F16 are better than the F15. The Isreali's wont let them play together because they are afraid they will end up losing both planes and pilots to either midair collisions or flying into the ground, due to the pilots intense rivalry.
The book finally stated that the Isreali's finally had a secret flyoff between the F15 and F16, and while the F15 was superior BVR, in a close in knife-fight, the F15 stood no chance against an F16.
The book finally stated that the Isreali's finally had a secret flyoff between the F15 and F16, and while the F15 was superior BVR, in a close in knife-fight, the F15 stood no chance against an F16.
Julian Data
Recruit
- 3
- Dec 28, 2012
Wow! this was an interesting read and a lot of bias on both sides. The aero discussion was delight as well.
This was on old thread but I stumbled upon doing a websearch. Being an engineer that worked on several aircraft simulators, some of the response are laughable at best. So i am not replying here to correct anyone or make any personal attacks. In my experiences, I have worked with the IPs and TPs on these aircrafts.
With the F14 vs F15, at lower altitudes specifically <15K, there is a slight edge to the F14A. The F15 will always have roll performance and climb performance edge from a subsonic standpoint over the F14A. With the F14B/D, if you look at the Psub charts, you'll see that the fighters are nearly identical in climb performance. The only edge the F15 has over the B/D is the roll performance when the wings are out.
All US navy drivers fight the radius while the AF go the Rate route.
... Since dramatic losses in Vietnam and the inception of Top Gun, NO pilot fights in the horizontal plane - all their maneuvers out of plane. Who would be stupid enough to get into a one plane match? You see videos of F14 going out of plane during BFM all the time so whoever said 'horizontal'.. remove that thinking from your head.
Now in WVR, the F14 drivers would intentional depart the plane in several ways to get the advantage to their opponent. The plane would could 'cartwheel' nose to tail and swap ends quickly, snap the nose from a nose slice to get a shot, asymmetric thrust... etc. That's one advantage of having no FCS however.. the F22 and Super Hornet/hornet are changing the rules on this.
When Hoser did a WVR match against the two FF Eagles in a F14A what do you think he did? How about the AIMVAL/ACMVAL no no fight against the F14A vs F15A? there were NO comments on that one. There was an Ego driver that did really well against the hoser and made the fight last real long. This Ego driver was trying to get away from an UNDERPOWERED F14A and he finally got the gun shot onto him.
The F15 evolved a better route while the F14 did not.
how about when the VF14 with the oldest F14As in the fleet and their new DFCS went up against the Luft Mig29 and beat them? The Mig29 isn't no slouch is it?
There are exercises when any aircraft in this thread did well because of its training or how the ROE is being added.
This thread entirely has too much 'my dad is bigger than your dad' mentality to it.
This was on old thread but I stumbled upon doing a websearch. Being an engineer that worked on several aircraft simulators, some of the response are laughable at best. So i am not replying here to correct anyone or make any personal attacks. In my experiences, I have worked with the IPs and TPs on these aircrafts.
With the F14 vs F15, at lower altitudes specifically <15K, there is a slight edge to the F14A. The F15 will always have roll performance and climb performance edge from a subsonic standpoint over the F14A. With the F14B/D, if you look at the Psub charts, you'll see that the fighters are nearly identical in climb performance. The only edge the F15 has over the B/D is the roll performance when the wings are out.
All US navy drivers fight the radius while the AF go the Rate route.
... Since dramatic losses in Vietnam and the inception of Top Gun, NO pilot fights in the horizontal plane - all their maneuvers out of plane. Who would be stupid enough to get into a one plane match? You see videos of F14 going out of plane during BFM all the time so whoever said 'horizontal'.. remove that thinking from your head.
Now in WVR, the F14 drivers would intentional depart the plane in several ways to get the advantage to their opponent. The plane would could 'cartwheel' nose to tail and swap ends quickly, snap the nose from a nose slice to get a shot, asymmetric thrust... etc. That's one advantage of having no FCS however.. the F22 and Super Hornet/hornet are changing the rules on this.
When Hoser did a WVR match against the two FF Eagles in a F14A what do you think he did? How about the AIMVAL/ACMVAL no no fight against the F14A vs F15A? there were NO comments on that one. There was an Ego driver that did really well against the hoser and made the fight last real long. This Ego driver was trying to get away from an UNDERPOWERED F14A and he finally got the gun shot onto him.
The F15 evolved a better route while the F14 did not.
how about when the VF14 with the oldest F14As in the fleet and their new DFCS went up against the Luft Mig29 and beat them? The Mig29 isn't no slouch is it?
There are exercises when any aircraft in this thread did well because of its training or how the ROE is being added.
This thread entirely has too much 'my dad is bigger than your dad' mentality to it.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Were they REAL simulators or the toy kind that "armchairs" who puke walking up an airliner jetway play while sipping on mountain dew and eating pizza....
It was one engagement very early in the F-15s career. What were the skills of the F-15 drivers? An old thread, but I remember reading that and never answered that for those reasons, especially when reading about the scenario when this took place. As the guy who made the post said
"Which is better? Whichever one has the better pilot in it."
Last edited:
Old thread, yes and one of those silly questions that were asked back then. What's the point in comparing a fleet-defence fighter, an expensive air supriority fighter and a relatively cheap and light allrounder. They were all good and capable in their own way.
For my country I think the F16 was best. Rather cheap and advanced for it's day. No point in buying an F15 or F14. The F16 is still very capable and many are not yet at their end of operational life. Still my government wants to buy an overexpensive stealth fighter (F35) costing billions of dollars, while they're not even sure what mission it's supposed to do. All ideas they have could be done with the ol' F16 just as easily.
For my country I think the F16 was best. Rather cheap and advanced for it's day. No point in buying an F15 or F14. The F16 is still very capable and many are not yet at their end of operational life. Still my government wants to buy an overexpensive stealth fighter (F35) costing billions of dollars, while they're not even sure what mission it's supposed to do. All ideas they have could be done with the ol' F16 just as easily.
Julian Data
Recruit
- 3
- Dec 28, 2012
actually flyboy, I did simulators for the USAF in which the IP actually used the software to help their students. When we came up to them at the airshow, they said.. "we use the f*cking piss out of it! thanks for all the hard work!"
I have read this old thread and you seem to ignore responses you didn't like.
it was just not just one engagement. It has happened several times after the AIMEVAL/ACMVAL. This includes the F15C. Read what Parson said when Top Gun was out and someone from Langley mouthed off. You had a F15C vs a F14A with a coughed motor going against TWO F15Cs. That's mid 80s.
when the F14A+/Bs came with the big motors, they had a big turkey shoot with a lot of planes and before the Block 50/52 F16s came out, the F14A+/B were the fastest things to M1.6 to get out of dodge.
and.. Yes, it pertains to pilot training as well. but you doubt everything against the F14A or F14 anything.. You're being subjective not objective. And for someone that is in our armed forces, that's bothersome.
I have read this old thread and you seem to ignore responses you didn't like.
it was just not just one engagement. It has happened several times after the AIMEVAL/ACMVAL. This includes the F15C. Read what Parson said when Top Gun was out and someone from Langley mouthed off. You had a F15C vs a F14A with a coughed motor going against TWO F15Cs. That's mid 80s.
when the F14A+/Bs came with the big motors, they had a big turkey shoot with a lot of planes and before the Block 50/52 F16s came out, the F14A+/B were the fastest things to M1.6 to get out of dodge.
and.. Yes, it pertains to pilot training as well. but you doubt everything against the F14A or F14 anything.. You're being subjective not objective. And for someone that is in our armed forces, that's bothersome.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And thats great - my comments were directed mainly towards "sim engineers" who basically design "games." Many of them have come on here talking about flying jets and yet they never flown in a real airplane....
Not at all - just the ones that had no relavence or the ones I haven't gotten around to read - remember this thread was dormant for awhile.
I seen the F-15 kick the crap out of F-14s during RIMPAC in 1998, I was there - I think that gives me the right to be "subjective." Did you ever serve in the military or were YOU a participant in any military exercise in your lifetime? The only thing I "doubt" about the F-14 are its limitations in a REAL WORLD situation, but it was a great aircraft unless you were the one maintaining it!!!
My fellow sailors admitted their shortcomings during this exercise, so unless you have some type of REAL military experience that places your opinions above those F-14 pilots that participated in the 1998 RIMPAC or the maintainers who I have worked with who turned wrenches on the Tomcat, spare me your rhetoric and BS unless you have "walked the walk" as I find THAT bothersome!!!!
Last edited:
Careful not to turn this into a name calling pissing match.
parsifal
Colonel
especially with a mod...welcome julian, but you are just a little aggressive for comfort, especially with just two posts mate. Youve got some very interesting observations and they do seem to make sense, but my advice, dont need to be as aggro about the issues....
Just trying to help ya
Just trying to help ya
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Aldler and Parsifal - thanks for the input, hopefully our new found friend will heed the advice...
After re-reading this thread this morning and making my way into work, a few questions popped into my head. Just so you know I work at the USAFA, and my employer is under the 19AF and we work with and for AETC. I work on the Academy soaring program, IFS and jump (skydiving) program with many IPs who flew everything from -15s to C-17s, so needless to say I know a little bit about USAF flight training. This "IP" that used your software - was it in a SIM or in his own personal PC? Do you know that ANY "OFFICAL" training aid has to be approved by AETC and run through an engineering approval process at one of the AF contracting and engineering centers (I deal with folks out of Tinker AFB, OK)? Training aids, be they software or hardware are strictly controlled and are made part of an approved curriculum. If this was recent, this IP possibly violated about a dozen AFIs involving software and their use in government computers or in computer training aids - unless YOU are a government contractor and went through the approval process to have your software used on government computers and training aids. Tinker and/or Wright Patterson would more than likely be the places where I believe this would happen, so now I'm curious - where was this "IP" from? Was he with AETC? Did he use your software on government training computers or full-motion sims? How long ago was this? I'm curious!!!!!
After re-reading this thread this morning and making my way into work, a few questions popped into my head. Just so you know I work at the USAFA, and my employer is under the 19AF and we work with and for AETC. I work on the Academy soaring program, IFS and jump (skydiving) program with many IPs who flew everything from -15s to C-17s, so needless to say I know a little bit about USAF flight training. This "IP" that used your software - was it in a SIM or in his own personal PC? Do you know that ANY "OFFICAL" training aid has to be approved by AETC and run through an engineering approval process at one of the AF contracting and engineering centers (I deal with folks out of Tinker AFB, OK)? Training aids, be they software or hardware are strictly controlled and are made part of an approved curriculum. If this was recent, this IP possibly violated about a dozen AFIs involving software and their use in government computers or in computer training aids - unless YOU are a government contractor and went through the approval process to have your software used on government computers and training aids. Tinker and/or Wright Patterson would more than likely be the places where I believe this would happen, so now I'm curious - where was this "IP" from? Was he with AETC? Did he use your software on government training computers or full-motion sims? How long ago was this? I'm curious!!!!!
Last edited:
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
uh oh........
