Farewell and best of luck

[FLYBOYJ]

They should know that sort of thing, right?

Of course

 

[Peter Gunn]

Tomo - Glad you're still with us, man that was close, you're knowledge, even if we reduce it by a factor of 10 like you suggest is still far in advance of many "experts" I've come across.

Not here of course, you're all "Experts" here...

 

[fastmongrel]

Not here of course, you're all "Experts" here...

Ex means they used to be good at something
A spert is a little trickle of liquid

 

[Zipper730]

Of course

You know, I started thinking of something. If they should have known that, is there any possibility they were deliberately engaging in disinformation?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You know, I started thinking of something. If they should have known that, is there any possibility they were deliberately engaging in disinformation?

I think they were so caught up in the hype they didn't have time to really think the situation out or actually research what happened. I know in the post accident report there was a position map on the Forrestal that showed each aircraft, where it was parked and who the pilot was. McCain's A-4 tailpipe was clearly pointing over the side away from the deck and other aircraft.

 

[fubar57]

Aircraft position about half way down....Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: USS FORRESTAL (CVA-59)

 

[Zippythehog]

I've just come across this thread. For what it's worth, I'm still here and a great many good people are too. Democide happened, is happening and sadly, horribly, is likely to continue happening. There is no excuse-none. While Nazi Germany did commit the most infamous, they were rank amateurs.

We, rational, caring human beings must confront. Nobody gets a pass on it. There are people who will look for ways to obscure, distract and justify brutal and bloodthirsty governments. We can't eliminate them, lest we join their evil. We can't silence them by gagging them-because the facts must be presented each time. We must remember the victims to prevent adding to their number.
Stay in there brother, and keep pitching.

 

[Graeme]

Keep those posts coming Tomo.

 

[MiTasol]

I just found this thread and have two comments
Tomo - you are pure bacon, I am glad we did not lose you.
I am pleased the post that upset you was not identified. Scum like that want reactions, silence kills them.

 

[pbehn]

I just found this thread and have two comments
Tomo - you are pure bacon, I am glad we did not lose you.
I am pleased the post that upset you was not identified. Scum like that want reactions, silence kills them.

The poster edited it very quickly, that was the issue. I saw it I dont think many others did but the mods had to go into the history to find out what Tomo was talking about.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Aircraft position about half way down....Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: USS FORRESTAL (CVA-59)

You can actually watch the beginning of the fire starting at 3.20

 

[Glider]

In the FAA in the mid 70's we were shown large parts of this film and others as part of our Damage control / fire fighting course. Sobering thoughts.

We were all trained in the use of breathing apparatus and special training given in the use of when and when not to use water. Interestingly part of our training was how to use water on oil fires in very specific limited circumstances.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In the FAA in the mid 70's we were shown large parts of this film and others as part of our Damage control / fire fighting course. Sobering thoughts.

We were all trained in the use of breathing apparatus and special training given in the use of when and when not to use water. Interestingly part of our training was how to use water on oil fires in very specific limited circumstances.

Mandatory watching when I was in the USNR. We have another thread going on this.

If you serve aboard ship in the USN you must go to firefighting and damage control school, mandated because of the Forrestal.

 

[special ed]

A friend who flew F4Us & F6Fs off carriers in the PTO told me all personnel learned firefighting including officers. This training worked in the early 60s when a small chemical factory caught fire at night. The only structure not completely destroyed was a metal building which Herb took over firefighting control. In those days of a volunteer FD and a Civil Defense Station Wagon as ambulance which Herb drove, he used his Navy training to stop the fire in the metal building. As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames. He said later he realised the danger fighting the fire was not smart as the building would be a loss anyway and outside 55 Gallon drums were cooking off flying 50 feet into the air. But that is the way those old vets were.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames.

We were taught the same technique in USAF Fire School, and trained using a couple of hundred gallons of JP-4 in a simulator building. Straight-stream the ceiling to particulate the water, and when the droplets steam off, they expand into vapor that occupies 1,700 times the volume of the original droplet pretty forcibly, thus pushing the O² out and smothering the flames with water vapor. One cubic foot of water (7.5 gallons) becomes 1,700 cu ft of vapor -- and we were shooting 175 gpm on a straight-stream. This vapor also saturates the enclosed air and lowers the ambient temperature in most all cases, which also disrupts the chemistry of fire.

One may also rain a fog onto a POL fire in an open area, but that will usually not quench the flames but only reduce the spread and intensity by lowering the heat. I've seen others douse open JP-4 fires with plenty of fog-spray on land but I doubt that'd work well on a rolling ship where the fuel can slop around to another ignition source.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A friend who flew F4Us & F6Fs off carriers in the PTO told me all personnel learned firefighting including officers. This training worked in the early 60s when a small chemical factory caught fire at night. The only structure not completely destroyed was a metal building which Herb took over firefighting control. In those days of a volunteer FD and a Civil Defense Station Wagon as ambulance which Herb drove, he used his Navy training to stop the fire in the metal building. As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames. He said later he realised the danger fighting the fire was not smart as the building would be a loss anyway and outside 55 Gallon drums were cooking off flying 50 feet into the air. But that is the way those old vets were.

I think during the Vietnam War firefighting training was either scaled down or eliminated as during the fire on the Forrestal some of the people putting out the fire pushed some of the foam overboard causing some of the hotspots to re-ignite. The entire Damage Control unit was killed leaving the ship in the hands of many untrained people who made many mistakes

 

[SaparotRob]

POL fire?

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I think during the Vietnam War firefighting training was either scaled down or eliminated as during the fire on the Forrestal some of the people putting out the fire pushed some of the foam overboard causing some of the hotspots to re-ignite. The entire Damage Control unit was killed leaving the ship in the hands of many untrained people who made many mistakes

Even well trained people make mistakes under stress and judging from the video I cannot imagine a more stressful situation. As you note the damage control unit was wiped out at the beginning. Even if the rest of the crew has been trained in damage control they are not practicing it on a regular basis and are much more likely to make mistakes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Even well trained people make mistakes under stress and judging from the video I cannot imagine a more stressful situation. As you note the damage control unit was wiped out at the beginning. Even if the rest of the crew has been trained in damage control they are not practicing it on a regular basis and are much more likely to make mistakes.

This was more than a stressful mistake, sadly they weren't property trained for this and did not know what they were doing was wrong. I was in the US Navy and this was pointed out to us when we went through firefighting and damage control school. Recurrent training is now required

 

[GrauGeist]

POL fire?

Petroleum
Oil
Lubricants