Fully tracked APCs for ww2: not worth it; or, why they didn't think of those?

[davparlr]

Weights for the different models vary but the 1953 TM 9-2800-1 technical manual for Military vehicles gives the net weight of of the M3 halftrack (not the M3A1) as 15,500lbs, payload as 4500lbs and gross weight as 20,000lbs. Net weight is defined on page 1 of the manual as " Weight of the fully equipped vehicle in operating condition with fuel, lubricants, and water, but without crew or payload, unless otherwise specified."

The M2A1 half track is listed at 14,600lbs net, 5000lbs payload and 19,600lbs gross.

Max recommended towed load, cross country, is 4,500lbs but the British used them to tow 17pdr AT guns in the post war Army of the Rhine. maybe they had the 7.4 liter engine version?

Thanks, good data. Weight is always an issue with military equipment, especially aircraft. The big question is always "what does the weight include". That why I think "America's Hundred Thousand", recommended to me by Rerich, is such a treasured book. Too bad we don't have that kind of data on all the equipment.

 

[Denniss]

I have (or have access to) several books about half tracks, most are vague with weights, give only one figure or have nothing at all.
The 251 Ausführung A seems to have started with an equipped weight (=net weight?) of just above 7 tonnes (7.8 tons) while the Ausführung D (last major version) hat 8 tons (~7.25 tonnes). Maximum weight is about 8.5 tonnes but the books I have don't state which Ausführung this figure applies to.

It's really a pain to have two imperial weight figures of the same name (ton/tons) but you never know which one is used unless specified (or you have to guess judging from where a book originates).

 

[Shortround6]

I don't know if the "net weight" of the American half tracks includes armament or not or if it includes ammunition. Some sources list 700 rounds of .50 cal ammo for about 210lbs not including the ammo cans plus 7000 rounds of .30 cal ammo for another 420lbs or so, not including cans. Up to 13 men at 200lbs per man? (160lbs per man + 40lbs equipment?)

1.1 tons in anybodies measurement system isn't a lot for 10-12 men with equipment. It doesn't leave much for extras.

Edit> the weights given were for machines with the which in the front bumper, vehicles without the winch but with the roller were 500lbs lighter net, had 500lbs more payload and the same gross weight.

US halftracks also carried 22 hand grenades and 24 anti-tank mines and fuses.

 

[raumatibeach]

Interesting thread, I see Davebender compares costs between the US and Germany a fair bit.How much of the Germans manufacturing was done by slave labour?Maybe man-hours involved in construction is a better comparison?

 

[Shortround6]

The slave labor doesn't become a factor until later in the war.

The bigger problems in comparing costs from country to country is that accounting practices weren't always the same(make sure contract being considered doesn't include either spare parts supplied to government or government is supplying parts like engines to the factory). and the fact that the currency exchange rate was pegged at a rather unrealistic level. It was not allowed to "float" in the open market in the last few years leading to the war.

 

[barney]

Uncle Rex, now deceased, was a rancher. At any opportunity I would go there as a young man and stay at the ranch. Anyway, one of his sons was a truck driver and one day I was invited along for a run.

We meant up with two other semi rigs and drove a long way on public roads. Then we drove a long way on private property crossing several cattle gates in the process. Finally we reached the cattle chute and all three trucks were loaded with cattle.

The the talk amongst the drivers reveled they thought they might be in some trouble. It had rained the night before and the trucks had to ascend a hill right out from where they loaded. The first two trucks made a run at the hill and made it but my cousin and I didn't. The road, if you want to call it that, was by now just too torn up. So there we were stuck a third of the way up the hill.

All of a sudden this M3 half track appeared driven by one of the hands. It still had armor plate on the cab but the box in back was missing. This was chained to our truck. I thought the thing looked too small to have much chance of pulling us up the hill but it didn't have any trouble at all.

So, as to how capable the M3 was, this one seemed capable indeed.

 

[psteel]

The French Lorraine load carrier was essentially the basis of an APC. I recall there were discussions to make APC out of them. Germans captured about 400-500 and used them as Self propelled gun vehicles and command vehicles. When the issue of mobile infantry for the Germans emerged the contract came down to three designs; one an all terrain wheeled vehicle another the SPW we know and a fully tracked version with SPW body. The first model was dismissed and it came down to the last two proposals of which the army wanted the fully tracked version , but this was rejected due to insufficent tracked vehicle production. So in the end they settled on the inbetween model.

 

[Dcazz7606]

I've seen a photo of a converted M-10 used to move the 155 Long Tom and 8" artillery mover. This was acomplished by moving the aero engine forward just behind driver leaving the whole rear of the vehicle free for extra cargo, ammo etc... I don't see why it couldn't be converted with a rear door system like the amphibs.

 

[tomo pauk]

Just take a look at the back side of the M 12 GMC - the engine was relocated into a middle part of the hull, leaving more space for the hefty cannon crew. Don't install the cannon, install the simple ramp instead of the earth spade, a roof and there you go. I've also proposed a while ago the similar conversion of the M3/M5 light tanks (with or without elongating the hull).

 

[stug3]

Universal carriers of the 1st Royal Gloucestershire Hussars on exercise near Guildford, 23 July 1940. One of the carriers is equipped with an experimental armoured roof.

A flamethrower mounted in a Universal carrier in action during a demonstration of flame weapons in Scotland, March 1942.

Universal carriers and infantry of 10th Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment advance 'under fire' during training near Sudbury in Suffolk, 10 June 1942.

Universal carrier of 53rd Anti-Tank Regiment being ferried across a river near Tanfield in Yorkshire using assault boats and pontoons by men of 16th Field Squadron, Royal Engineers, 10 June 1942.

 

[michaelmaltby]

De-frocked Priest - or Kangaroo:


Used by the Commonwealth in Europe - post Normandy:

Kangaroo (armoured personnel carrier) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vinnye]

As Graugesit mentioned earlier, the USMC had the LVT - which although designed as an amphibious support vehicle soon became used to ferry troops to the beach.
Particularly after the Tarawa landings when the Higgins boats usually used could not cross the reef and made the troops wade ashore under fire and loaded down.
From Wiki -
The LVT 1 could carry 18 fully equipped men or 4,500 pounds (2,041 kg) of cargo.[1] Originally intended to carry replenishments from ships ashore, they lacked armor protection and their tracks and suspension were unreliable when used on hard terrain. However, the Marines soon recognized the potential of the LVT as an assault vehicle. Armored versions were introduced as well as fire support versions, dubbed Amtanks, which were fitted with turrets from Stuart series light tanks (LVT(A)-1) and Howitzer Motor Carriage M8s (LVT(A)-4). Among other upgrades were a new powerpack, also borrowed from the Stuarts, and a torsilastic suspension which significantly improved performance on land.

As a result of Tarawa experience, standardized armor kits were provided for the LVTs employed in contested landings, and the gun-armed "amtanks" LVT(A)-1 and LVT(A)-4 were developed to provide fire support. Armed with a 75 mm howitzer, the latter was especially effective in this role as it was capable of destroying Japanese fortifications as it came ashore. However the LVT(A)-4 had an open-topped turret which left the crew vulnerable to artillery and infantry attack, especially to the latter as it lacked any sort of machine gun armament. The lack of machine gun armament was eventually rectified, though the open-topped turret remained. Although usually used during landings only, in the Marianas campaign "amtanks" were employed inland, much like regular tanks.

The largest use of the LVTs was in the Leyte landing, with nine amtrac and two amtank battalions deployed. As there was no fighting on the beaches, this is also one of the least famous LVTs operations. Over 1000 LVTs took part in the Battle of Okinawa.

So, with regard to the original post, fully tracked troop carriers were thought of and used during WWII.

 

[stug3]

Scots Guards seen here on parade at the Royal Wanstead School, London, 9 October 1942.

 

[redcoat]

A flamethrower mounted in a Universal carrier in action during a demonstration of flame weapons in Scotland, March 1942.

This was called the Wasp and saw widespread service in both the British and Canadian armies in Italy and the 1944-5 Northern Europe campaign

 

[vikingBerserker]

I would love to own a Bren Carrier

 

[razor1uk]

Brilliant thread, loved the funny line

...Of course I don't really know if those are English kgs or American kgs. ...

Semi-off topic..
Yep we have had a funked up wieghts measures sytem, nowerdays we mostly use metric (Kg's) system (since the mid/late 1970's) which itself is identicle across all the Countries of the World over; although for roads, bridges and axle weights we still use the UK/Imperial with Metric as the secondary measurement (for international drivers).
We still use MPH, and all UK speedometers are dual marked in KMH too - perhaps one of the only countries using dual marked sytems road signage. I was schooled from the 80's and have never officially been taught about lbs, oz, ton(s) and tons, let alone quater half-wieghts, shillings, guineas, farenhieght etc, and all that jazz - but a pint is always sacrosant, unless we eventually upsize to a litre glass standard.
Generally here we are semi bilingual in Metric and Imperial, and have found the US's slightly different Imperial system annoying, then again from their side, ours is/was just as much too them.

But in WW2, 'Imperial' wieghts measures still was 'top dog' for us (the UK,) Common Wealth/British Empire back then.

 

[yulzari]

Imperial? What problems? A Guinea is 1008 Farthings with 21 shillings to the Guinea so it is obvious that a Pound is 96 Groats at 48 Farthings to the Shilling. I don't know why you young people think it was a problem. After all 5 Florins equals 2 Crowns.

If you have £17/11/6 1/4d and divide it by £2/7/4 1/2d how much is left over?

 

[Ascent]

The Universal/Bren/Scout carrier shouldn't really be thought of as an APC but as an armoured Jeep. It was basically used in the same roles.

Also the Germans did develop a fully tracked APC at the end of the war based on the Sd.Ffz 138/2 Hetzer. It was called the Vollkettenaufklarer 38(t) Kätzchen and (according to Wikipedia) two prototypes were made.

 

[stug3]

This doesnt look very practical.

 

[Shortround6]

Try googling " machine gun bicycles " images and see what you get