Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang (1 Viewer)

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No, look at the notes on the last page:

"Clean Condition: Same as Combat Condition except pylons removed. At combat power, Vmax/SL = 333 knots and Vmax/ACA = 403 knots/20600 ft."

403 knots = 463.7724 mph

Now, you might want to argue that removing the capped pylons is somehow "unfair", but I'd point out that maximum speed figures for European aircraft were without such accutriments even though actual combat aircraft almost never flew without them. In fact, some of the German and British figures are even sans radio antenna.

Regardless, the point is that the generally accepted figures for US aircraft, published during the early cold war years, are military power figures, not Combat power figures.

=S=

Lunatic
 
syscom3 said:
If the pilot is unconscience, then it doesnt matter if the plane can handle 9 gee's or 20 gee's. Its going to be shotdown.
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Not necessarily. Some manuvers may involve very short duration high G levels. A human can sustain very high G's for a couple of seconds, but if the plane cannot withstand them then.....
 
syscom3 said:
The couple seconds he is blacked out is a couple of seconds he has lost situational awareness, with potentially fatal results.
Click to expand...

No disagreement there. But lets say the pilot puts the plane through a 9G cornerning manuver. G levels are over 5G's for less than 5 seconds. The pilot will not black out from this, however if the wings rip off the plane that really does not matter.

The point I'm trying to make is that G tolerance is also time dependant. People can withstand up to well over 10 G's for brief periods and not pass out. If you are in good health and the G's do not come on instaneously and drop off quickly you can take a surprising high G load. On the other hand, much lower G loads over extended periods will make you pass out. 4G's is probably enough to make 95% of pilots pass out after 30+ seconds.

Taller men also tend to have less G-tolerance. For best G tolerance you want short squat men with high blood pressure! Robert Johnson looked like a beer barrel with arms and legs!

=S=

Lunatic
 
I can only dream of what 10Gs must feel like. We did a 3 G maneuver the other day on a training flight and the weight on my legs and body felt crazy. I have experienced higher than 3 but never anything higher than 4. 10 must be fricken amazing!
 
It certainly won't be comfortable. But my point is that for a couple of seconds you can withstand 10 G's w/o passing out. Imagine sitting in a chair that takes a 10 foot fall and lands on firm grass. That'd be 10+ G's instantaneous decelleration.

Remember, I'm not saying the pilot could do much under such G forces, simply that the plane's ability to survive such instantaneous G loads is important becasuse if the wings come off there is no possiblity of recovery or continuing to fight. To humans, sustained G loading leads to physical failure, but to machines, instaneous G loading is what leads to catastrophic failure.
 
Lunatic said:
It certainly won't be comfortable. But my point is that for a couple of seconds you can withstand 10 G's w/o passing out. Imagine sitting in a chair that takes a 10 foot fall and lands on firm grass. That'd be 10+ G's instantaneous decelleration.
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I've taken 5 and 6 Gs for limited periods WITHOUT a G suit and besides from being grayed and blacked out it felt like I got flattened by a bus while my stomach was being lifted into my throat. After the flight and into the next day I felt like I spent 3 days in the gym on every weight machine - and I'm in decent shape - 5'10" 185 pounds...

I've flown with a G suit and pulled about the same in an F-4 and in a T-33. It helps but you still feel it....

You ain't taking 10Gs without passing out unless you're in olympic shape or Superman.....
 

Thats probably true. I find it interesting that the US AF requires a fighter pilot to be able to tolerate 9g for a specified period (I think without a G suit) before they are even accepted for a fighter training slot. I'll try to get the specifics but I don't have them handy.

wmaxt
 
JonJGoldberg said:
wmaxt I'd love to see that, 2nd elmilitaro...
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I first heard it on a documentary and have seen it elsewhere since then, unfortunately I did not save the source I'm not even sure it was on line. I think the time was 10 seconds and that was in a centrafuge so they had to deal with the acceleration to that point.

I will keep trying to find the info.

wmaxt
 
Its true alright, I know for a fact that a F-16 pilot must be able to withstand 9 G's without a G-suit for x amount of time, before being accepted for further training. This precaution is needed in-case of a G-suit failure in a combat situation, where you need to be sure the pilot can take these forces regardless. Pilots also train vigorously to be in shape if such a failure should happen as their lives may come to depend on it.
 
I've done 7 when I new it was coming - there were times when "playing photographer" I got yanked into 5 or 6 Gs and easily grayed or blacked out.

I've also confirmed the 9 G requirement with some of the pilots at the academy - most of them do it through the centrifuge so its slowly applied and you know its coming, its the quick G load that gets you and could even pull muscles or worse if you're not prepared for it.
 
Yep, thats why its always nasty being the passenger in a fighter.
 
I've greyed out at about 5 Gs in the backseat of an L-39 during an aerobatics routine.

Anything more than about 4.5 Gs is really tough. You start to lose colour from your vision and your develop progressive tunnelvision.

It's no surpise that I'm not exactly a G monster though - I'm 193 cm/ 86 kg (thats 6'4", 190 lbs to all you heathens still on imperial). Most g-resistant pilots are lighter, stockier and MUCH smaller than me.

NASA did some interesting studies in the 50's and 60's with regard to women pilots and astronaughts. Very fit women are physiologically capable of handeling more G forces than very fit men are, because of their size and different body shape. Men seem to have better spacial orientation in violent manouvering flight but women are less likely to make mistakes and think more clearly and clinically in a dogfight situation. Apparently this is because estrogen is a better primary stimulant under some kinds of stress conditions than testosterone.
 
Soren said:
Yep, thats why its always nasty being the passenger in a fighter.
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Yep - when i got to go up fron in an L-29, it seemed I could take more Gs.

The few times I got to fly in the F-4 our chief pilot always had to come over the field fast and do the over head to land - a few times he caught me and I recovered as the wheels were touching the runway...
 
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