FW 190 RLM's

[Catch22]

LOL

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm wondering where you pick up THOSE kits...?

 

[stona]

These schemes on the Eastern front are a real can of worms, so I will simply give you my take on them. I'm certainly not seeking an argument or trying to be controversial!
These aircraft should have arrived on the Eastern front in the standard fighter scheme of 74/75 over 76. It seems that operating at lower altitudes over the Russian landscape that many pilots considered this ineffective and ordered their aircraft to be painted in more appropriate and darker tones. There are many opinions as to how this was achieved (as many opinions as authors!) Some say Russian stocks were used, others that non aircraft specific "Heer" colours were used. Some think that the sandy colour is infact RLM 79 miraculously transported from the mediterranean! I favour another option which is that they were mixed from existing stocks of RLM paints. The fighters operated from airfields in conjunction with transport and bomber aircraft (particularly in the early stages of the Russian campaign) which would wear their standard 70/71 over 65 schemes so these darker green hues must have been available.Add a little yellow or red( RLM insignia colours) and it is surprising what you can come up with. I have actually experimented with this.
This "generic" Fw190 was painted with mixed standard RLM colours.

The white was a sort of distemper applied as temporary winter camouflage and as has been said weathered very quickly, disappearing entirely from heavy traffic areas.
I'd go along with Wurger's advice on the order of painting. The white,as he rightly says ,was applied over the other camouflage.
Looking on the bright side with the almost total absence of good colour images of these machines almost anything you do will be alright!!!!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Wurger]

Looking really great. I like her.

 

[Airframes]

I tend to agree with you Steve, about how certain colours were produced, other than 'standard' RLM colours. It's something I've been suggesting for years, and is logical and makes absolute sense. I've even experienced it myself, although in 'modern' times, when British Army equipment items have been painted with available paints, in order to meet local requirements and, of course, it's known that US aircraft based in the UK during WW2 also used 'local' paints, and various mixes, for certain applications, when needed in a hurry.
The 'distemper' type paints have also been used by British forces, in the early '70's, to change camouflage schemes on, for example, Wessex helicopters and, by their very nature, tend to wear off in heavy use areas, and 'thin' or wash off partially or completely after exposure to the elements.
BTW, nice FW190 !

 

[stona]

Thanks for the comments.I only mixed the colours for the Fw190 from RLM colours to see if it could have been done that way.I guess I've been convinced by Michael Ullmann's argument. The important thing is that they definitely applied non-standard colours. As Airframes says,in the field you do what has to be done.
I think that for we modellers it doesn't really matter how we achieve the colours to interpret whatever profile we are working to. If I were to do that 190 again I would probably use British Dark Earth rather than mixing three RLM colours!
Look at the browny colour on this Bf 109:

Compared to the dark earth on this Spitfire:

My advice to amiers is not to get hung up with the RLM equivalents but to use what looks best to him.Colour debates ( thankfully elsewhere) get a bit to heated for my liking sometimes, we're supposed to be having fun.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

With reference to non-standard colours there is an earlier precedent for their use. During the BOB the official (RLM) upper surface colours were an 02/71 splinter. By August of 1940 British reports on downed fighters were referring to them having grey schemes. They are described rather loosely (light navy grey,battleship grey,two shades of grey e.t.c.) but are most certainly grey.This predates the official introduction of the so called two greys scheme of 74/75 (over 76) ,in November 1941, by more than a year. These colours must have been locally mixed paints applied to aircraft whose pilots wanted better camouflage over the channel.They were certainly mixed from existing stocks of RLM colours and may well be precursors of the later 74/75 scheme.They certainly cause some confusion.
Once again stereotypes are confounded. I cannot imagine an RAF unit operating from Britain in 1940 getting away with unilaterally painting its aircraft in a grey scheme because its pilots thought it gave them better protection!
Steve

 

[Airframes]

I've got some info on this somewhere Steve. I think it was JG53 who first used the greys in general use, and there is some thought that this might have been a JG used for a number of 'experimental' schemes and markings combinations. Also, Galland is well known for having his 109E's in the greys, even tough JG26 at the time were still in the 02 scheme, and the first British recording was of a 109E3, down on a beach, in early August 1940 I believe. (Can't remember the JG) I've got all the notes on this tucked into a book on the '109, which has gone 'missing' - can't find the bl**dy thing anywhere, which is very strange, as I had it and was using it to refer to the end of last year when I was painting Meyerweiisflog's '109, in the greys, brought down in early September 1940. Incidentally, this was actually in the 74/75/76 scheme.

 

[stona]

I know how you feel about digging bits of information out of files! I lost a hard drive in my laptop recently. I had all the pictures backed up but lost a lot of the associated notes I had made from the various references. It is frustrating to find an image that I know I copied for a good reason and not know that reason. Still it gives me a chance to re-read the relevant bits.
I remember Meyerweissflog's machine being one of the options in Airfix's big kit,though I've never built it. I don't remember JG53 being an experimental camouflage unit but I stand to be corrected. If the popularly held reason for their red band and loss of emblem are to be believed they could hardly have been flavour of the month in Berlin!
I've always suspected that these grey colours were being tried by various "wings" involved on the channel front. I need to have a rummage to see if they were associated with specific units.
Do you think that Meyerweissflog's machine was actually in the 74/75 over 76 scheme? I doubt that they would have had stocks of those colours so early. I believe they were mixing greys which effectively predated those later colours and were probably very close to them.This however is opinion ,not fact. If I was modelling it I'd probably paint it as 74/75 and call it close enough. We'll probably never know for sure!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Airframes]

I think you're right Steve. Meyerweissflog's aircraft, and others in the same paints, were probably not 74/75/76 as such, but so close that the colours later were refered to as such. I did see somewhere years ago that these colours, possibly/probably experimental at the time, did gain the RLM numbers later, although with slight changes, I think in the way of additives to aid preservation, which might have changed the hue ever so slightly.
As regards JG53 being an experimental unit, I haven't seen any 'official' documentation to this effect, but, from various sources, the concensus seems to be that they did have a number of 'non regulation' schemes, including various mottle patterns, and the greys, before other units eventually adopted them 'officialy'. This was also in operation during the period of the 'Red Ring' phase - maybe it was an extension of Goering's displeasure, deliberately messing them about with colour changes!!! (only joking, but you never know!).
The model I refered to is in fact the Airfix 1/24th scale '109E, which I picked up from good old Woolworths about 4 years ago, in the sale, half price at £7 !! I'm sure they must have got the full price wrong, as at the time it was still retailing at around £30 !! Anyway, as the undercart legs and attachment points were very 'softly' moulded, as was most of the kit, a sign of the age of the moulds, I decided to build it as a belly landed example, but wanted to retain the canopy. I'd already painted most of it as Meyerweissflog's machine, specualting a bit on what damage might have occured, when I got a pic of the aircraft here, on the forum. I was delighted to see that I was very close in the 'damage' I had modelled. I must get around to making a base for it, so that I can finish the darned thing!

 

[B-17engineer]

Who is the makers of these kits?

 

[stona]

You are quite right,JG 53 certainly had some "interesting" schemes! Seven quid for that big Airfix kit was good going, someone made a mistake! You've got to get it finished,that will be one big,impressive diorama.
B-17 engineer I'm not sure what kits you mean.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

In follow up to Airframes and my discussion about the appearance of the grey colours approximating to RLM74 and 75 and then their actual application to aircraft I have this from Dave (the same chap who gave us the cockpit colour info. for early Bf109s) from another thread.I quote him here:

"The colours 74, 75 76 were first made available circa May 1941 and made official with the publication of L.Dv.521/1 in November 1941 which included the addition of three new colours; 74, 75 76. Yet, and for reasons probably best known to themselves, Messerschmitt had already began applying it to 109Fs during June/July 1941.

Interestingly, the first recorded example of a 109 finished in 74/75/76 was a C-1 of the IV.(N)/JG2 which was carrying out 'field tests' of these then proposed colours in mid-1940 in Norway on behalf of the E-Stelle. I believe my colleague Ken Merrick covers this in depth in his recent camouflage and markings books from Classic/Chevron.

As far as the mixing of 70, 71 and 02 goes, this was certainly taking place amongst the Channel-based Jagdgeschwader during mid to late 1940 and is an area which I covered briefly in the article that I gave a link to at the '109 Lair' earlier in this thread. Indeed, throw 65 into the mix as well and a whole range of greens, greys and blues can be produced. As I also mention in that article, there can be no doubt that given the infinite variables that would apply to 'field mixes' it is more than a probability that some of these either approximated or even matched the later 75/75/76 series of greys.

L.Dv.521/1 = Luftwaffen-Dienstvorschriften 521/1 (roughly translates to Official Air Force regulations 521/1)
Sources for the 74/75/76 references comes from copies of original RLM and Messerschmitt documents in my files while those for the reference to locally made field mixes comes from copies of original documents and a series of correspondence and discussions which I had with former ground crew and pilots between 1978 and 1998.

Cheers
Dave

Hope this helps. It seems that the oficial tests were being carried out in a (relatively) safe area away from the channel front.whilst various units operating accross the channel were doing there own experiments. Anyway it looks like Airframes has got his big109 on the money.
Note to self - re-read Merrick!
Steve

 

[Airframes]

Thanks Steve, very useful and interesting stuff. It seems I'm probably right in going with the info I had, where the 'early' greys, as per JG53 for example, where probably very close to, or the same as, what evenually became the RLM 74/75/76 range.
As for the 1/24th scale Bf109E, I need to make a base for it before I can do the final bits on the model itself, as it needs to be sort of 'blended' into the ground work, where the lower engine cowling has settled into the earth. I'll get around to it soon, as the model is in the way, and needs to be put on a display shelf!