pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
what if the Luftwaffe faced the RAF after beating the Russians in 41 what does the 2nd BoB in 1942 look like
germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
With or without US involvement?
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pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
With US involvement
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
What period 1942? Early, mid, late? I can't say that much for the Luftwaffe, but the time period is very significant for the RAF.
It matters because the Spitfire IX with the Merlin 61 was introduced in July, significantly redressing the imbalance that existed between the Spitfire V and Fw-190 and Bf-109F4. The Spitfire VI was also introduced in mid 1942, flying its first combat sorties in April. The Spitfire VII started service in September. The Spitfire Vc became the new production standard Spitfire V in October 1941, with a heavier and slightly more refined airframe which would later be the basis for the Mk VIII, and Mk. XIV.
Similarly, the Typhoon really came of age as a fighter in late 1942. It exchanged the 12 .303 LMGs for 4 Hispanos and got rid of the "Austen 7" car style door and heavy cockpit framing in favour of a semi bubble canopy. Sabre reliability also shot up in the period (from 25 hour over hauls to 75-100 hour overhauls) when Bristol got involved in fixing some of the flaws in the sleeve-valve design for the Sabre.
So if it is in early 1942, the Luftwaffe have a significant advantage. No Spitfire IX and a Typhoon with chronic reliability problems. Front line fighters are 35-40 squadrons of Spitfire Vb, 4-6 squadrons of Spitfire Vc and 2 squadrons of Westland Whirlwinds, with about 12-16 squadrons still operating the Hurricane and Spitfire II. Beaufighters and the new night fighter Mosquitos can deal with the night blitz fairly well, but in daylight it is a different story.
Mid 1941 to mid 1942 is a period of almost absolute technical dominance for the Luftwaffe.
At the end of 1942, things look much better for the RAF. There are about 10 operational Spitfire IX squadrons, a few (2 or 3 ?) Typhoon wings coming on line, the high altitude Spitfire VI and VII start to see deployment. By February 1943 the Spitfire XII also starts deplyment.
It matters because the Spitfire IX with the Merlin 61 was introduced in July, significantly redressing the imbalance that existed between the Spitfire V and Fw-190 and Bf-109F4. The Spitfire VI was also introduced in mid 1942, flying its first combat sorties in April. The Spitfire VII started service in September. The Spitfire Vc became the new production standard Spitfire V in October 1941, with a heavier and slightly more refined airframe which would later be the basis for the Mk VIII, and Mk. XIV.
Similarly, the Typhoon really came of age as a fighter in late 1942. It exchanged the 12 .303 LMGs for 4 Hispanos and got rid of the "Austen 7" car style door and heavy cockpit framing in favour of a semi bubble canopy. Sabre reliability also shot up in the period (from 25 hour over hauls to 75-100 hour overhauls) when Bristol got involved in fixing some of the flaws in the sleeve-valve design for the Sabre.
So if it is in early 1942, the Luftwaffe have a significant advantage. No Spitfire IX and a Typhoon with chronic reliability problems. Front line fighters are 35-40 squadrons of Spitfire Vb, 4-6 squadrons of Spitfire Vc and 2 squadrons of Westland Whirlwinds, with about 12-16 squadrons still operating the Hurricane and Spitfire II. Beaufighters and the new night fighter Mosquitos can deal with the night blitz fairly well, but in daylight it is a different story.
Mid 1941 to mid 1942 is a period of almost absolute technical dominance for the Luftwaffe.
At the end of 1942, things look much better for the RAF. There are about 10 operational Spitfire IX squadrons, a few (2 or 3 ?) Typhoon wings coming on line, the high altitude Spitfire VI and VII start to see deployment. By February 1943 the Spitfire XII also starts deplyment.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The US had the P38 and P47 finally in production in 1942. I wouldnt say any of the US bombers were ready though, although the A20 and B25 could have performed quick strikes on the channel to disrupt the German invasion buildup.
I reckon Britain would have dealt another blow to any attempt by the Luftwaffe to crush the RAF in the British skies. Even with the technological supremecy of the Fw-190 and Bf-109F, they just weren't in any situation to completely wipe out the RAF. The RAF had well organised defensive tactics by then and were still out-producing Germany in aircraft production. With U.S involvement, there would be the P-47 and P-38 in their primary roles which were high altitude interceptors. The P-38 would most likely be the interceptor of choice, it would easily chew up the Luftwaffe's bomber arm.
Agreed pD. Britain would of survived another invasion attempt especially with US involvement. With the new fighteres coming online as Jabberwocky mentioned and US build-up increasing all the time. The Luftwaffe would have been hard pressed to win a second 'Battle of Britain'. I do not believe that they would of succeeded.plan_D said:
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Any bomber that flies below 20,000 feet is going to be VERY vulnerale to the 4 Hispanos of the Typhoon. It really would of taken over the bomber destroyer role that the Hurricane played in the Battle of Britian. The high speed and concentrated firepower, combined with an excellent sighting view and the fact that it was a very stable gun platform, meant that He-111s, Do-217s and Ju-88s were far more vulnerable to a Typhoon than they had been to the Hurricane 2 years earlier. Like the Hurricane, it wasn't really a match lin a straight out fight with 109s or 190s unless flown VERY well.
The Tyffie would be the interceptor of choice for low level raids b fighter bombers. After all, the early Typhoons could do 375 mph at 8,500 feet and 400 mph + at 20,000 feet. Later improvements saw the Typhoon doing 395 mph at 9000 feet and 415 mph at 20,000 feet. While rate of climb was never spectacular, even the early versions could still get to 20,000 feet in 8 1/2 minutes, or 15,000 feet in 6 minutes. It had good success in 1943 chasing down low level 'tip and run' FW 190s over Southern England.
Assuming a late 1942 scenario, the USAAF has the P-38E and the P-47B available. Both have great potential, but really need to wait until the F and C models respectively until they are truly considered combat capable. The Lightning gets newer uprated Allisons and many refinements, and the P-47 gets new alieron and rudder surfaces and adds 8 inches to the front of the fuselage to alleviate some CoG problems. Neither were rolling off production lines until September 1942. So its going to be quite a few months before USAAF groups can convert, tran and deploy with them.
The most likely deployables for the USAAF are the P-40E, F, K and L and the P-39N.
The Tyffie would be the interceptor of choice for low level raids b fighter bombers. After all, the early Typhoons could do 375 mph at 8,500 feet and 400 mph + at 20,000 feet. Later improvements saw the Typhoon doing 395 mph at 9000 feet and 415 mph at 20,000 feet. While rate of climb was never spectacular, even the early versions could still get to 20,000 feet in 8 1/2 minutes, or 15,000 feet in 6 minutes. It had good success in 1943 chasing down low level 'tip and run' FW 190s over Southern England.
Assuming a late 1942 scenario, the USAAF has the P-38E and the P-47B available. Both have great potential, but really need to wait until the F and C models respectively until they are truly considered combat capable. The Lightning gets newer uprated Allisons and many refinements, and the P-47 gets new alieron and rudder surfaces and adds 8 inches to the front of the fuselage to alleviate some CoG problems. Neither were rolling off production lines until September 1942. So its going to be quite a few months before USAAF groups can convert, tran and deploy with them.
The most likely deployables for the USAAF are the P-40E, F, K and L and the P-39N.
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
In my opinion Germany never had any chance to crush UK system with a bombing campaign, regardless how many RAF fighter were available.
Simply, even if unchallenged, the Luftwaffe never had enough bombers (in number and type) to do the job.
What Germany could have done, in case of victory in the East, would have been to keep UK isolated and wipe out from the skies any allied attempt to bomb Germany, at least for enough years to bring everything to a stall (just think what would have been the bomber offensive if Fritz could have used all the planes and pilots that were deployed on the russian front).
The only thing that might have changed this picture for one side or the other is the use of nuclear bombing.
Simply, even if unchallenged, the Luftwaffe never had enough bombers (in number and type) to do the job.
What Germany could have done, in case of victory in the East, would have been to keep UK isolated and wipe out from the skies any allied attempt to bomb Germany, at least for enough years to bring everything to a stall (just think what would have been the bomber offensive if Fritz could have used all the planes and pilots that were deployed on the russian front).
The only thing that might have changed this picture for one side or the other is the use of nuclear bombing.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
same as before, just faster with smaller turning circles...........
What if the Goering and Hitler had concentrated all their aircraft on the radar chain and the RAF fighter airfields without being 'distracted' by the RAF bomber raids on Germany in 1940, which led to the blitz on UK cities and diverted a huge part of the Luftwaffe's strength in BoB 1?
Also there were very few bomb carrying BF 109s available in 1940. In 1942 there would be bomb carrying BF 109s AND FW 190s.
Also there were very few bomb carrying BF 109s available in 1940. In 1942 there would be bomb carrying BF 109s AND FW 190s.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
bomb carrying -109s would do nothing, the 190s would do more but they would still require bombers to do lots of damage, and they were still using the same bombers as the first BoB!!
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pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
What Germany could have done, in case of victory in the East, would
i also think the above statement is true and i believe that the UK would be extremely isolated hard pressed for fuel food and armament the U boats would have attempted to put a noose around the UK instead of splitting their forces . Bomber command would be forced to keep flying the Stirling and Halifax as most other engines would be rec'd for Fighter Command along with most of other strategic materials the Luftwaffe had longer range capability with fw 190 and would be far more attuned to working against the home chain radar systems the Germans at this point would have production running at full steam unlike in 1940 the Americans would do what they could but it would be hard pressed to supply the UK. I think the UK would be large Malta stubbornly hanging on but with much less light at the end of the tunnel
i also think the above statement is true and i believe that the UK would be extremely isolated hard pressed for fuel food and armament the U boats would have attempted to put a noose around the UK instead of splitting their forces . Bomber command would be forced to keep flying the Stirling and Halifax as most other engines would be rec'd for Fighter Command along with most of other strategic materials the Luftwaffe had longer range capability with fw 190 and would be far more attuned to working against the home chain radar systems the Germans at this point would have production running at full steam unlike in 1940 the Americans would do what they could but it would be hard pressed to supply the UK. I think the UK would be large Malta stubbornly hanging on but with much less light at the end of the tunnel
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Just a thought, I have to think about this more today.......... dont forget this hypothetical battle will be fought while the Japanese are on the rampage through the Pacific.
Will the US throw even more scarce resources to Britain, or try to fight in both regions?
Will the US throw even more scarce resources to Britain, or try to fight in both regions?
cheddar cheese
Major General
Smokey said:
Yep - and an Fw-190 can carry at least as much as a Do-17, then fight its way back home.
Massed fighter bomber attacks with top cover against first the radar stations, then the fighter airfields would be quite effective.
Also the Luftwaffe night blitz using intersecting directional radio beams could have been mounted on a much larger scale with Stalin defeated.
Doenitz would have again pushed for a massive increase in U boat production
Also the Luftwaffe night blitz using intersecting directional radio beams could have been mounted on a much larger scale with Stalin defeated.
Doenitz would have again pushed for a massive increase in U boat production
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I wouldnt exect a second BoB untill late spring 1942. Here is the US fighter output throughout 1941 untill midyear 1942.
P38 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 700
F5 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 120
A36 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 600
P39 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 1000
I dont have the production numbers for the P40, but it must have been close to the P39.
Just the shear numbers of allied pilots and aircraft, each capable in its own flight regime, would have dealt serious loss's to the Luftwaffe. To think that the Germans could have replicated its success's from 1940 is wishfull thinking.
Remember, American production is ramping up and more and more men and material would be available each month.
P38 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 700
F5 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 120
A36 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 600
P39 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 1000
I dont have the production numbers for the P40, but it must have been close to the P39.
Just the shear numbers of allied pilots and aircraft, each capable in its own flight regime, would have dealt serious loss's to the Luftwaffe. To think that the Germans could have replicated its success's from 1940 is wishfull thinking.
Remember, American production is ramping up and more and more men and material would be available each month.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Just been doing a little research on USAAF fighter deployments and production.
P-38 production was pretty slow before the F model. There were only 68 P-38s on hand for the USAAF by the end of 1941, all P-38D or earlier. There were only 207 P-38s built in 1941, compared to ~1400 built in 1942.
The first major production model is the P-38E with around 210 produced. Even the USAAF didn't really consider it a 'combat ready' airplane, that was reserved for the heavier and more powerful P-38F. Between January and September 1942, there were just 525 P-38F airframes delivered. The first USAAF engagement of LuftWaffe aircraft didn't come until August, 1942, when P-38Fs of the 33rd fighter squadron engaged a FW 200 Condor off the coast of Iceland and shot it down. By the end of August 1942 there were just 179 P-38s deployed in England. The first operation sorties were flown from England on 28 August, 1942.
P-51/A-36A production and deployment in the USAAF really doesn't take off until 1943. The USAAF didn't order the first production batch of P-51s for itself until April, 1942, almost 2 years after the first British orders. The first squadrons to operate the A36 were the 27th and 86th, who didn't see combat until mid 1943. The first USAAF P-51 Mustang units saw their first combat in a similar time period.
British deployment of the Mustang was understandably a little earlier. First combat was recorded at the end of July, 1942 and the first victories in August. By the end of October 1942 there are 14 Mustang I squadrons operating out of the UK, mostly in the tactical reconnisance and low level fighter regiemes. The P-51 was significantly quicker (25-45 mph) than the Spitfire V at all alts below about 20,000 feet, but it was 5 minutes slower to get to 20,000 feet and less manouverable above this height. Typhoons and Mustangs would of had handled the bulk of the low level interception duties, the Tyffie being 15-20 mph faster still than the Mustang.
The comparison here is Spitfire and Typhoon production and deployment. By September 1942, 515 Typhoons had been handed over to the RAF, with some 13 squadrons operating the type and more converting. Similar production numbers to the P-38, but they didn't have to do the trans-Atlantic flight and had the luxury of using existing facilities. In August 1942 the RAF had 42 squadrons of Mk V Spitfires, 4 Mk IX and 2 Mk VI and 8 with Mk IIb/c, all in the UK. There were also several fighter bomber Hurricane squadrons (rapidly being phased out in favour of the Typhoon) and 2 Westland Whirlwind squadrons, used for long range escort. So British fighters are still going to make up the bulk of the fighter forces in the UK.
I'd say that until at least late 1942 or early 1943, when the P-47C and P-38G really start to roll off the production lines, the main fighters of the USAAF would be the P-40 and P-39. Both are capable fighters in their element, but probably not quite up to the level of the Spitfire V and 109F or Typhoon Ib and 190A4/5 seeing service at the same time. I think both would of struggled to intercept raids coming in at anything above 20,000 feet.
The premium fighters in the USAAF by August 1942 would be the P-38F, with the Mustang I and P-47C entering the fight in a few months time. P-40s and P-39s would account for the bulk of the fighter force until well into 1943, possibly all the way to the end of the year?
P-38 production was pretty slow before the F model. There were only 68 P-38s on hand for the USAAF by the end of 1941, all P-38D or earlier. There were only 207 P-38s built in 1941, compared to ~1400 built in 1942.
The first major production model is the P-38E with around 210 produced. Even the USAAF didn't really consider it a 'combat ready' airplane, that was reserved for the heavier and more powerful P-38F. Between January and September 1942, there were just 525 P-38F airframes delivered. The first USAAF engagement of LuftWaffe aircraft didn't come until August, 1942, when P-38Fs of the 33rd fighter squadron engaged a FW 200 Condor off the coast of Iceland and shot it down. By the end of August 1942 there were just 179 P-38s deployed in England. The first operation sorties were flown from England on 28 August, 1942.
P-51/A-36A production and deployment in the USAAF really doesn't take off until 1943. The USAAF didn't order the first production batch of P-51s for itself until April, 1942, almost 2 years after the first British orders. The first squadrons to operate the A36 were the 27th and 86th, who didn't see combat until mid 1943. The first USAAF P-51 Mustang units saw their first combat in a similar time period.
British deployment of the Mustang was understandably a little earlier. First combat was recorded at the end of July, 1942 and the first victories in August. By the end of October 1942 there are 14 Mustang I squadrons operating out of the UK, mostly in the tactical reconnisance and low level fighter regiemes. The P-51 was significantly quicker (25-45 mph) than the Spitfire V at all alts below about 20,000 feet, but it was 5 minutes slower to get to 20,000 feet and less manouverable above this height. Typhoons and Mustangs would of had handled the bulk of the low level interception duties, the Tyffie being 15-20 mph faster still than the Mustang.
The comparison here is Spitfire and Typhoon production and deployment. By September 1942, 515 Typhoons had been handed over to the RAF, with some 13 squadrons operating the type and more converting. Similar production numbers to the P-38, but they didn't have to do the trans-Atlantic flight and had the luxury of using existing facilities. In August 1942 the RAF had 42 squadrons of Mk V Spitfires, 4 Mk IX and 2 Mk VI and 8 with Mk IIb/c, all in the UK. There were also several fighter bomber Hurricane squadrons (rapidly being phased out in favour of the Typhoon) and 2 Westland Whirlwind squadrons, used for long range escort. So British fighters are still going to make up the bulk of the fighter forces in the UK.
I'd say that until at least late 1942 or early 1943, when the P-47C and P-38G really start to roll off the production lines, the main fighters of the USAAF would be the P-40 and P-39. Both are capable fighters in their element, but probably not quite up to the level of the Spitfire V and 109F or Typhoon Ib and 190A4/5 seeing service at the same time. I think both would of struggled to intercept raids coming in at anything above 20,000 feet.
The premium fighters in the USAAF by August 1942 would be the P-38F, with the Mustang I and P-47C entering the fight in a few months time. P-40s and P-39s would account for the bulk of the fighter force until well into 1943, possibly all the way to the end of the year?
Not only is there debate about how many and what type of US fighters would have been available in this time period, but after the defeat of Stalin the German leadership may have put more of its industrial strength into U boat production and this could have reduced the number of US fighters getting to the UK even more greatly
