germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like

[evangilder]

Maybe, the P-38 could fly across on ferry flights though. So at least some of them would not be coming by sea.

 

[syscom3]

The U-Boat offensive, although serious, would not have sunk all of the ships heading to the UK. The time to build a sub and train a crew takes several months. If the scenario of more U-Boats being made, then the scenario should also include no deployments untill middle 1942 at the earliest.

I was also thinking of the fighter bomber role for the FW190, and figured it wouldnt have made much of a tactical difference. All it takes is for it to be "possibly" intercepted and it would have to drop its bombs in order to fight.

The P38 models available in the early part of 1942, were still good enough to go after bombers and do some damage. Remember it was fast and could still climb very fast.

If the allied command was smart (which they were) and forced flight disipline (which they could) and had each available fighter to stay at their best altitudes, then they could have mauled the Luftwaffe.

 

[Smokey]

With Stalin defeated, and no UK/US - Soviet convoys to worry about, surely Doenitz could have swithced more U boats to attacking US - UK convoys.
This could have seen a massive increse in Allied shipping losses.

The FW 190s would have had escorts, diversionary raids, and would have approached at low altitude.

 

[Gemhorse]

Those convoys to Russia were a huge drain on Allied resources, so switched to just US/UK, they would've been beefier....Even if Germany had defeated Russia, the Luftwaffe were still seriously depleted on the West European front....I doubt they could've remustered enough for another BoB and overcome the Fighter Command build-up by then....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In 1942 the Luftwaffe would still have been hurting from the Eastern Front. It is very difficult to say that they could have put on a BoB II in 1942. Defeating Russia certianly would have delayed the outcome of the war. Changed it? No. However it might have given time for the Germans to develop there more advanced designs. I believe there best bet would have been to fight a defensive air campain against the allied bombers and hope for a stalemate and a truce (which would not have happened).

 

[pbfoot]

I think in 42 if the Germans had suceeded in Russia the Luftwaffe would have been a far more formidable force then in 1940, maritime resources would have been moved to blockade the UK instead of inderdicting the Murmansk convoys the german navy was at its peak and i don't think the UK would be able to mount much of bomber campaign simply suppling the UK would be far more challenging

 

[Glider]

In 1942 the German Navy would have had about the same strength. U Boat production was already the No 1 priority and you cannot just increase production. The RN was a lot stronger in 1942 and the Germans would never have achieved the goal of an invasion. If they tried our bombers were of such power with Lancasters, Halifax's and Sterlings entering combat in numbers, that any building up of landing barges ect would have been pulverised.

The Luftwaffe would have been a more formidable force but then again so was the RAF. Our night defences which were close to negligable in 1940, were the strongest in the world by some margin and experienced.

So the Germans would have had to come by daylight. This was the nub of the problem, German bombers were almost the same in 1942 as 1940. He111, Ju88 were the backbone, the only real improvement would be the introduction of the Do217. Fighters were almost standardised on the Spit 5 which was good enough for the 109F and the Spit IX entering service. 190's would have been a problem of course but if used on tip and run raids they achieve little and even the Typhoon did quite well in defending against these types of raid. If the 190 is flying over then leave it.
Nope the Germans would not have achieved much

 

[book1182]

I agree with Glider. The Germans would have a few new aircraft but they were not of the bomber type. They never solved the problem of having a heavy bomber. Also, the British had by that time built up a force that could with stand an aerial attack and not relied on the few but more like the many.

It would have been a good battle to watch though.

 

[syscom3]

Dont forget the USN would provide a very strong force to help take care of the German navy.

By summer of 1942, there were three fast battleships available.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The german navy wouldnt stand the slightest bit of a chance against the royal navy nor the united states navy, much less if they were combined. The americans, already moe devoted to defeating germany before japan, would have been able to divert all supply vessels bound for russia to the UK, and they would have been able to better protect them, along with the royal navy. Now the war in africa was just about over for rommel and his afrika korps, and the italians, and had a second battle of britain arose, the landings in italy, truly wasteful when you think about it, would have been devoted to more useful causes. British and American bombers were much better at this point in the war, where as german bombers saw little improvement in defense or speed and were virtually the same aircraft. The Fw-190, a simply stunning example of an aircraft, wouldnt be available in enough numbers to combat the american and british airforces. The battle would have caused many casualties on both sides, but would have inevitablly ended all in the same.

 

[syscom3]

Ive always wondered how the F4F Wildcat would have held up in this type of scenario.

 

[pbfoot]

I think Africa after the eastern front would probably have been under axis control as the Germans would have not been as restrained for men and materials after overcoming the USSR. I believe it would have much worse for the Brits then the first BoB in all aspects. I"m trying to find out how many Uboats were available in 42 compared with 40

 

[syscom3]

Dont forget to factor in the USN ships that would have been available

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The Italian and north african area completely, though more heavily contested for sure, would have ended up in the hands of the British and the americans. Once the Vichy surrendered to the americans, and the americans started sending supplies to the theatre, the germans and the italians lost hope. i mean the italian divisions had horrible combat records for the most part, because regardless of the war, italy was in turmoil, and there were already plots to overthrow mussolini. The regia aeronautica was hopeless compared to the royal air force and that of the americans. The fighters were improving yes, but the aircraft werent produced in the numbers needed, and everything was always in short supply. They lacked adequate tanks and vehicle transport, making advances and retreats too hard, because they werent a mobile force. The german afrika corps, lead by erwin rommel, while a crack force was always short of supplies, logistical problems and land transport being a huge problem. They never had enough sea transpot either, and malta based british aircraft were taking there toll on the ships. They couldnt have pulled off reinforcement fast enough after the soviets were defeated, not enough to do anything but prolong the conflict a little. Even if they got the initial men and matieral there, there wasnt enough fuel to go around yet, and distribution of russian stocks by a germany without overland or airborne and sea transport in plemtiful supply in the medditerranian theatre, it wasnt looking good.. My view

 

[102first_hussars]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army, I guess in terms of supply the Allies would be in trouble, because now the Germans have just aquired a land enriched with raw materials, but alot of the tank and Airplane factory's Russia had were mostly on the far east side of the country, I think Hitler would use that as a way to help the Japanese conquer China
and when that is all done with they would turn their attention towards England.

With all of that air power mustered by Germany and Japan combined it would be dam near impossible for the U.S and Brits to sustain a defence to ensure a victory.

 

[syscom3]

Wouldnt Germany need a huge army just for the occupation of Russia?

 

[102first_hussars]

They did have a huge army by that time, besides Operation Barberosa would very well have been a success if Hitler wasnt such a control freak.

 

[Glider]

102 I am afraid that you are I believe way off the mark. If German bombers couldn't live in the skys over the UK Jap bombers would have been shot down in huge numbers. As for the fighters, the best the Japs had was the Zero and that had significant disadvantages against Spits assuming that we didn't get sucked into low speed dogfighting.

The Germans had more U Boats in 1942 but we handled them and they couldn't build any more as the shipyards were working flat out anyway.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The occupation of the soviet union in itself would have been a huge problem, granted the germans had a huge army, but revolt and resistance movements would have been prevalent, roads and railways, bridges and everything would have been cut off, destroyed, mined. The germans lacked overland vehicles up to the challenge of supplying everyone, and the luftwaffe would have at the time been too severly depleted. If stalin thought russia would truly fall, like they were on the brink, he would most likely have blown aircraft and tank production facilities and ordered the navy to scuttle itself, and for as much of everything to be destroyed. Supplying the italian and north african fronts with the supplies captured to prevent the ousting of the afrika korps from north africa, and maybe even the initial invasion of italy. Though that would have been pointless because many divisions would have been rushed from the eastern front to support the italian front. The war would have dragged on, but midway was done with, and the japanese navy was shot for the rest of the war, due to massive american production and dominance in both battleships and carries, not to mention hundreds of submarines (still had defective torpedoes, though soon corrected) and destroyers and cruisers. The japanese even if they captured china, again wouldnt have been able to divy up the benefits fast enough to make a difference before many more setbacks. Had this happened the war would have dragged on for two to maybe even three more years after 1945, but the end i believe would have been the same.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

The second battle of britain as a result of all of that would have been the same as the first, just prolonged, sorry had to post the end in a second one.