germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like

[102first_hussars]

102 I am afraid that you are I believe way off the mark. If German bombers couldn't live in the skys over the UK Jap bombers would have been shot down in huge numbers. As for the fighters, the best the Japs had was the Zero and that had significant disadvantages against Spits assuming that we didn't get sucked into low speed dogfighting.

The Germans had more U Boats in 1942 but we handled them and they couldn't build any more as the shipyards were working flat out anyway.

Who cares man, thats irrelevent, during the Actual BoB the Luftwaffe had worn the RAF to its knees and we would have lost the war if Hitler hadnt decided to concentrate his air power on London instead of the Air Feilds, and lets just say that Japan didnt use its bombers, they just provided escort service, ok?, their fighters wipe us out before we can figure out how we can better them, the Zero may not have been better than the Spit, but the Zero was outstanding and the Japanese pilots were just That Dam Good

And about the U-boats, Im pretty sure Canada did most of the handling of the U-boats until the U.S navy went into high gear in the Atlantic, and from what ive learned the Canadian Navy just couldnt destroy enough of them to truly make a difference.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Popular misconception and BoB myth there I'm afraid Hussars.

The RAF was never 'at its knees'. At most there was significant pressure on some 11 Group airfields which may of caused the squadrons based there to relocate to fields further inland. No 10 and No 12 groups could of taken up the slack quite effectively, if No 11 group was forced to move further inland. The No 10 group Commander, Leigh-Mallory, actually complained that his squadrons weren't seeing enough action.

The main point of pressure on the RAF came in late August, when available pilot numbers began to drop due to 'wastage' and battle fatigue, causing Dowding to begin a classification and rotation system of frontline units. However, by October the activation of Polish squadrons and Commonwealth trained units went towards alleviating the pilot shortage.
At mid August, the height of the Battle period, the RAF had a deficiency of some 211 pilots against established strength. However, at the start of the Battle the RAF had a deficency of 386 pilots, reducing to a 79 man deficit at the end of July. By the end of October, it had a surplus of 69 combat pilots against established strength.

Reserve fighters available to the RAF never diped below 38 Class 1 Spitfires (Class 1 = ready for immediate used) and 78 Class 1 Hurricanes. At any one point in the Battle period, there were always more than 125 single seat fighters sitting in reservem ready for dispersal to active units. After the end of July, there were never less than 700 fighters available for operations by RAF fighter squadrons.

 

[delcyros]

Knowing their strategical shortages of having almost no heavy bombers (the few He-177 have been grounded due to various technical problems), no fleet worth mentioning and realizing the strategical advantage to defend an isle, I don´t belive that a second BoB would have happened. I mean it would only makes sense if a enduring victory over the skies of england (doubtful) could allow a invasion but this was beyond german capabilities.
Attention would therefor shift to Africa and the near east. Taking Egypt was well in their possibilities in 1942 and could seriously enleghten british convoilines to a way around Africa.
With additional forces they could hope to advance in the whole near eastern region as well.
Technically I would give the Jumo 222 a chance to be produced an masse. With all the ressources now avaiable in Russia this engine wouldn´t have forced to be canceled because of shortages. And with Jumo-222 the Ju-288 comes into the play and this undoubtly is what could fullfill any of the Luftwaffe´s bombers role.
However, the Bf-109 G2 already replaced most servicable F4 in late 42 and I rate it as an excellent fighter. Spit IX vs. G2 is an interesting pairing.

 

[carpenoctem1689]

I dont think the germans would have been able to take africa. Because by then the americans had forces on the way, torch wasnt far off at all, and the lend lease stuff was flowing more freely to the theater. The american troops were showing up, and the air forces were getting stronger. Rommel, an excellent leader, never had the logistics of reaching egypt, and couldnt have taken it had he got there. With the supplies in russia captured, the germans had no way of getting enough to africa to stop them from being ousted completely. The italian invasion, had it been handled the way it was, would have failed, because in the beginning it damn near did anyway. Overlord would have been much harder, because many more german divisions would have been freed up. However the end would have been the same, for both the battle of britain and the end of the war, because the germans, with enormous borders and the inevitable supply and resistance troubles would have had a hell of a time.

 

[syscom3]

I dont think the Germans would worry to much about Africa after a Russian capitulation. They would have turned whatever forces they culd spare from occupation duty towards the south and gone after the Iran/Iraq oilfields

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army,

Actually there were allready Russian units in the German army made up of Russian soldiers that either A. defected or were B. Captured and decided to fight with the Germans or C. Hated Stalin and thought of Hitler as the lesser of the 2 evils atleast for the time being, that were fighting the Russians.

 

[102first_hussars]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army,

Actually there were allready Russian units in the German army made up of Russian soldiers that either A. defected or were B. Captured and decided to fight with the Germans or C. Hated Stalin and thought of Hitler as the lesser of the 2 evils atleast for the time being, that were fighting the Russians.

Really? in that case we would be screwed and who knows Hitler may have introduced conscription to the Russians to join the German Force.

I dont know how people can say that if Russia fell to the Germans England would be just fine, they wouldnt If the Soviet Union fell Hitler would have forced the Russian people to join the German Forces, forced them to work as slave labourers, dozens of Schweinfurt sized factories could have been built in a short period of time due to large work force, fuel source was in close proximity(Oil Feilds in the Ukraine) thousands of newly trained a brainwashed Russian pilots would have equipted the Luftwaffe so heavily that it could bomb England as long they want, they could lose twice as many pilots and planes as they did in the actual BoB and keep on givin'er.
Face it the in this scenario cannot be be forced out of battle simply by air.

Now this doesnt necessarily mean the War would be lost. It just means alot of the Allies would be cramped up in Scotland,Ireland and Whales for the time being.

 

[syscom3]

The retraining and reequipping of all those hypothetical units would take months to do.

By the time that could have been accomplished, we could well be into late 1942. If that happenes we have to start factoring into our hypothesis that America is well mobilized for the war now, and is growing exponentially stronger each month.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army,

Actually there were allready Russian units in the German army made up of Russian soldiers that either A. defected or were B. Captured and decided to fight with the Germans or C. Hated Stalin and thought of Hitler as the lesser of the 2 evils atleast for the time being, that were fighting the Russians.

Really? in that case we would be screwed and who knows Hitler may have introduced conscription to the Russians to join the German Force.

Hitler never would have gotten eneogh Russian soldiers to make a difference though.

 

[Gnomey]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army,

Actually there were allready Russian units in the German army made up of Russian soldiers that either A. defected or were B. Captured and decided to fight with the Germans or C. Hated Stalin and thought of Hitler as the lesser of the 2 evils atleast for the time being, that were fighting the Russians.

Really? in that case we would be screwed and who knows Hitler may have introduced conscription to the Russians to join the German Force.

Hitler never would have gotten eneogh Russian soldiers to make a difference though.

Agreed, I don't believe he would have been able to get enough Russian troops to supplement the German and axis troops already in the line, plus it would take months if not years to train them all by which point the allies strength in Britain would of increased, making it even harder for the Germans to make a success out of a second attempt on the British Isles.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap my point exactly.

 

[102first_hussars]

In that case I go back to my original theory, which I see now is much more probable, either way

regardless of what people want to beleive England would be f*cked. No ifs or buts.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Disagree, with what was the Germans going to attack England with. There forces had to recover from the East. They would not have beaten Russia without being bloodied themselves.

 

[Gnomey]

Disagree, with what was the Germans going to attack England with. There forces had to recover from the East. They would not have beaten Russia without being bloodied themselves.

Agreed the British could have fairly easily survived a second so called Battle of Britain. Germany was not going to defeat Britain by bombing as they themselves where not defeated by bombing it was only a factor in their eventual defeat. The only way to defeat the British would have been an invasion for which the Germans never had the logistics to undertake or blockade by U-boats and this failed. Even if the Germans had more U-boats the allies anti submarine warfare was improving all the time to a point at which it was dangerous for a U-boat to be at sea. This can be seen in their losses which as the war drew to a close were exceded production. Of the servicemen in the U-boats 75% did not see the end of the war (at least according to the figures I have seen). Germany could not afford those kind of losses even if Russia had been defeated. Just my opinion but I see no way for the Germans to defeat the British. Surrender would be a possibility but I think even this would have been hard for the Germans to achieve even with Russia out of the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The most that it coudl have done is prolong the war and nothing else.

 

[Gnomey]

The most that it coudl have done is prolong the war and nothing else.

Exactly, and even then in my opinion the outcome would of been the same (German defeat) or an negociated (sp?) surrender. There was no way with the set up the Germans had that they could effectively 'knock' Britain out of the war especially after the US had joined.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe had the war been prolonged long eneogh eventually an attempt on Hitlers life would have eventually succeded and a negotiated surrendure would have happened. This negotiated surrendure however would have been all the terms of the allies but it would have been a much better situation for Germany.

 

[Parmigiano]

I agree on the point that after defeating USSR Germany would not have the strenght to invade Britain, I have some doubt that the outcome of war would have been the same.
In my opinion Germany could have been strong enough to force UK+USA to a stall situation, creating two blocks similar to the 'cold war' scenario: continental Europe ruled by the Germans and USA-UK on the other side.

Interesting point could be 'what about the Orient' : maybe China would have tried to join the Russian 'partisans' and create a third block of powers (in that scenario USA+UK and Germany would probably not be strong enough to play a leader role in the Far East)

Real critical point of balance would still be the Middle East and his oil, whitout of course Israel as independent state.
The territory would have been contended by the 3 powers, with the 'Anglo-Saxon' block in slight disadvantage because of geography, and maybe trying to focus expansion on South America.

wow, if I hit the lotto and can live one year without work I'll make some reserch and write a fantasy book....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In my opinion Germany could have been strong enough to force UK+USA to a stall situation, creating two blocks similar to the 'cold war' scenario: continental Europe ruled by the Germans and USA-UK on the other side.

Now that would have been an interesting scenerio.

 

[plan_D]

Hussars:"Oil Feilds in the Ukraine"

Since when has there been oil fields in Ukraine? Ukraine was famous for it's coal and grain, not oil. Oil was to come from the Caucasus region.

I cannot be bothered to stretch this reply, but had the Soviet Union been pushed past the Urals then Germany would not have an awful lot freed up for any more actions. However, Britain would be hard pushed in North Africa with new action from Germany.

The Suez Canal would be a priority of the German forces, to split the Empire in two would wreak havoc on Britain. However, Britain would not allow. The British 8th Army had numbers of tanks deployed in North Africa that the opposing German forces could only dream of in such a small theatre (in comparison to the East). Rommel was already reeling, and the only hope of Germany winning North Africa by late 1942 was to drive over the Caucasus mountains, down through Turkey (would they join Germany, or fight?) and into Persia, Syria and Palestine then on to Eygpt. Would they do it in time? I don't think so.