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Gloster Meteor v Messerschmitt ME-262
- Thread starter Gnomey
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Erich
the old Sage
GT great job ! sorry graf there is nothing like the real thing, superimposed graphics just doens't cut it. besides the Nowonty jet squadron : the # 8 is too big
Erich
the old Sage
man long day today or something in the air.......great job Gnomey
Nonskimmer
Captain
That's a good wallpaper just the same, Graf. I'll take it. 
Erich
the old Sage
Erich
the old Sage
As to the Meteor outturning the Me262A-1a, even at slow speed, hardly so...
Note the Me262 has full-span auto-slats, and swepped back wings.
Further notice the Me262A-1a's "normal" loaded weight was around 5,000 kg, and "max" loaded weight was 6,400 kg. (The Me262A-2a's "max" loaded weight was 7,130 kg)
The British Vampire was a far greater threat to the Me262 than the Meteor.
Note the Me262 has full-span auto-slats, and swepped back wings.
Further notice the Me262A-1a's "normal" loaded weight was around 5,000 kg, and "max" loaded weight was 6,400 kg. (The Me262A-2a's "max" loaded weight was 7,130 kg)
The British Vampire was a far greater threat to the Me262 than the Meteor.
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
I agree with Soren, the DH Vampire was the better aircraft, created by Frank Halford and first flew in 1943.....
Sir Henry Tizard helped bring the USA into the jet age...As Chairman of the British Aeronautical Council, he was involved with Whittle's work and proved the greatest of his supporters....Early in 1941, he gave the American National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics a brief description of the Whittle engine and soon afterwards General 'Jimmy' Doolittle officially asked the British Govt. for drawings. In Oct. the two govt.'s agreed to disclosure on both sides, 'to assist the joint defence plans' with the British sending the drawings and a test-bed engine and the Americans putting it into manufacture. Three of Whittle's engineers went to the USA where the drawings were passed to General Electric Co; copies of the Whittle jet, produced by GE, were later installed in a Bell aeroplane. Later that year, work done by Metro-Vickers and DH were also sent to the USA. The American work was concentrated on axial compressors and, much later, they took a licence for the Farnborough/Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire....
The Smithsonian Museum in Washington makes little reference to the help the British gave the USA in jet development. It's description of the invention of the jet gives equal credit to Whittle and to the German, von Ohain, whose jet flew in 1939 and who happened to be educated in the US, where he returned after the War.
The Germans gained an initial lead over the British jets because, while Whittle was trying to get his engine right, the Germans, under pressure to improve aircraft performance, went ahead with an under-developed unit.
US development, and worldwide progress with jets, eventually owed far more to the British inventor, Whittle, than to the Germans.....
Although the story of the gas turbine started with A.A. Griffith in the 1920's at Farnborough, Whittle filed his first patent in 1936 for what became known as the 'by-pass type of jet engine' - it was to be taken up by the world's aero-engine builders 30 years later, and adopted by the American industry under the name ''fan''. Another British chap involved was Hayne Constant, and his scheme for a ''straight-through jet engine with an axial compressor'' was undoubtably the forbear of the great majority of jet propulsion engines powering the world's aircraft today. Griffiths joined Rolls Royce in 1944, and was instrumental in the development of the 'Avon'.....
Willy Voigt, Messerschmitt's chief designer indicated their research left them in no doubt about the necessity of 'swept-wings' and control surfaces in aircraft flying at very high Mach numbers. In 1945 at Oberammergau, the Americans discovered and transferred to the USA, a German Mach 4.4 wind-tunnel, which shows the extent of German aerodynamic development by that stage....Hence the Bf-262's marvellous design compared to the Gloster Meteor....To a greater degree, the Allies were still very much into their piston-engines, which were topping-out at 3,500 hp before the switch to jet engines became inevitable, the Glosters were early aircraft developments, which IMHO, the de Havilland Vampire was the first really well-rounded British jet fighter.........
Gemhorse
Sir Henry Tizard helped bring the USA into the jet age...As Chairman of the British Aeronautical Council, he was involved with Whittle's work and proved the greatest of his supporters....Early in 1941, he gave the American National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics a brief description of the Whittle engine and soon afterwards General 'Jimmy' Doolittle officially asked the British Govt. for drawings. In Oct. the two govt.'s agreed to disclosure on both sides, 'to assist the joint defence plans' with the British sending the drawings and a test-bed engine and the Americans putting it into manufacture. Three of Whittle's engineers went to the USA where the drawings were passed to General Electric Co; copies of the Whittle jet, produced by GE, were later installed in a Bell aeroplane. Later that year, work done by Metro-Vickers and DH were also sent to the USA. The American work was concentrated on axial compressors and, much later, they took a licence for the Farnborough/Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire....
The Smithsonian Museum in Washington makes little reference to the help the British gave the USA in jet development. It's description of the invention of the jet gives equal credit to Whittle and to the German, von Ohain, whose jet flew in 1939 and who happened to be educated in the US, where he returned after the War.
The Germans gained an initial lead over the British jets because, while Whittle was trying to get his engine right, the Germans, under pressure to improve aircraft performance, went ahead with an under-developed unit.
US development, and worldwide progress with jets, eventually owed far more to the British inventor, Whittle, than to the Germans.....
Although the story of the gas turbine started with A.A. Griffith in the 1920's at Farnborough, Whittle filed his first patent in 1936 for what became known as the 'by-pass type of jet engine' - it was to be taken up by the world's aero-engine builders 30 years later, and adopted by the American industry under the name ''fan''. Another British chap involved was Hayne Constant, and his scheme for a ''straight-through jet engine with an axial compressor'' was undoubtably the forbear of the great majority of jet propulsion engines powering the world's aircraft today. Griffiths joined Rolls Royce in 1944, and was instrumental in the development of the 'Avon'.....
Willy Voigt, Messerschmitt's chief designer indicated their research left them in no doubt about the necessity of 'swept-wings' and control surfaces in aircraft flying at very high Mach numbers. In 1945 at Oberammergau, the Americans discovered and transferred to the USA, a German Mach 4.4 wind-tunnel, which shows the extent of German aerodynamic development by that stage....Hence the Bf-262's marvellous design compared to the Gloster Meteor....To a greater degree, the Allies were still very much into their piston-engines, which were topping-out at 3,500 hp before the switch to jet engines became inevitable, the Glosters were early aircraft developments, which IMHO, the de Havilland Vampire was the first really well-rounded British jet fighter.........
Gemhorse
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"THE GREAT GAZOO"
me262 said:
Much of the admission of the Soviet Union's participation in the Korean War came in the 1990s after the fall of the Soviet Union when many of the pilots who flew in Korea admitted they were there.
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
From what I've read, 'Bf' was the correct designation used during the War....
Gemhorse
Gemhorse
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
If 'Bf' was the correct designation then why do MTT documents show Me262 or 8-262?
See document B.NR.22140/45 dated Jan 15 1945 as an example. Another document dated 23.3.1944 also says Me262.
Now the RLM continued to use 'Bf" but sometimes would use 'Me'.
See document B.NR.22140/45 dated Jan 15 1945 as an example. Another document dated 23.3.1944 also says Me262.
Now the RLM continued to use 'Bf" but sometimes would use 'Me'.
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
You're probably right, the 262 always seems to have the 'Me' designation...
I've always thought the Bf...'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG' was behind this...although Willy went through a bankruptcy in the early '30's...he still kept it - The biz was also known as 'Messerschmitt AG'...but the 109 seems to have the 'Bf' stuck to it right through the War and after by many historians etc.....Maybe Erich can clarify this ?........
Gemhorse
I've always thought the Bf...'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG' was behind this...although Willy went through a bankruptcy in the early '30's...he still kept it - The biz was also known as 'Messerschmitt AG'...but the 109 seems to have the 'Bf' stuck to it right through the War and after by many historians etc.....Maybe Erich can clarify this ?........
Gemhorse
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Gem, my post was not directly aimed at you.
When Willey bought out the 'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG the prefix 'Bf' was dropped and replaced by 'Me' as it was now Messeschmitt AG.
Remember that much of WW2 history was written by British authors who used 'Bf'. People just continued to use 'Bf'.
Can't remember all that was said in all the Bf/Me designation discussions I have read.
Just asking, but did not British pilots say 'Me'?
When Willey bought out the 'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG the prefix 'Bf' was dropped and replaced by 'Me' as it was now Messeschmitt AG.
Remember that much of WW2 history was written by British authors who used 'Bf'. People just continued to use 'Bf'.
Can't remember all that was said in all the Bf/Me designation discussions I have read.
Just asking, but did not British pilots say 'Me'?
KraziKanuK said:
Bf is not correct for anything other than the Bf-109 (technically Me-109 with the start of the G series) and the Bf-110 up to the number sequence 162. 'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG was the name of Messerschmitts company. Origianally Germany aircraft were designated by the company that produced them. Hense Bf-109 even though it was Messerschmitts design, or the Fw-190 even though it was Kurt Tanks design. The German Reich Air Ministry changed the designation system in the spring of 1942 so that the aircraft were designated after there designer. For Messershmit this occured between the Unsuccessful Bf-162 Jaguar (the number allocation was transfered to the He-162 Volksjaeger) and the Me-163 Komet. The Komet being the first aircraft to be named with the Me instead of the Bf. Ofcourse there is a grey area with the Bf-109, since the 109s actually kept there Bf designation and the Me is actually just applied to the G, K and H varients of the 109. The later varients of the 109 retained there Bf and this was standardized to include all aircraft up to the 162. The Me-163 and all later aircraft designs by Messerschmitt were Me. Another example of this is the Ta-152. The company that built it was Focke-Wulf but the designer was Kurt Tank so the aircraft became known as the Focke-Wulf Ta-152 under the new designation rgulations rather than the Focke-Wulf Fw-152.