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we've missed one of the big ones i think ?
during the BoB Hurricanes were intentionally vectored onto the bombers whilst Spitfires vectored onto the fighter escort !
It is equally true that on some occasions things were the other way around and on the vast majority of occasions squadrons or part squadrons were placed where they were regardless of aircraft type.It is actually true - this did happen. Both Park and Dowding ordered it on separate occasions. One instance was on 19 July 1940, Park ordered that of the squadrons sent up to intercept Stukas attacking a convoy off Dover the Spit ones, comprising aircraft from 65 and 610 Sqns were sent up high to deal with the escorting Bf 109s (of JG 51) and the Hurricanes of 32 and 615 Sqns to deal with the Stukas down low. Didn't quite work out that way, but the order was placed.
Thus the windows had rounded corners.
It is equally true that on some occasions things were the other way around and on the vast majority of occasions squadrons or part squadrons were placed where they were regardless of aircraft type.
Willy's enthusiastic "Yes!" to Hitler asking if it could be a bomber did, in fact, change the war to a certain degree.
First, it needs to be said that the Germans had absolutely no chance of winning the war.
In regards to the Me262 being made a Schnell bomber: it delayed the Me262's introduction and thus, saved countless Allied aircrew lives.
The Me262 was introduced far to late to have a physical impact on the war - by 1944, the writing was on the wall.
*IF* the He280 went into production in 1941/42 followed by the Me262, it would have certainly changed the face of the airwar over Europe, but in the end, Germany would have still been defeated.
Which invasion? Was that the French invading France? The 262 started to be introduced in April 1944.Erhardt Milch reckoned that had the Me 262 gotten into service before 1943 was out it could win the war. Of course we know that it would end with a nuclear weapon in late 1945 rather than early 1945 but certainly in 1943 it would have completely disrupted American daylight operations and chased the mosquito pathfinders and recons out of the sky.
The claim that Hitler delayed the me 262 seems to have originated with Adolf Galland who wanted to focus the Me 262 on air superiority.
The Me 262 moved along at its own pace. When presented to Hitler, probably in 1942, he enthusiastically supported the program which helped its progression considerably. He did ask 'can it be used as a bomber' and was told yes it could' and that sealed his support. Hitler from that took it would enter service as a JABO or fighter-bomber. He wanted to use it to attack the upcoming allied invasion and to strike back at Britain to take back the initiative. He didn't want it exclusively as a fighter-bomber just that some of them could just like the Me 109 and Fw 190 be used in that way.
When the invasion came and he asked about it he found out that pretty much nothing had been done in that regard. Of course no Me 262 was in service, neither fighter or fighter bomber mainly because the engines just weren't mature yet so it didn't matter much as far as preventing the invasion went Prototype Ar 234 did fly missions over Normandy straight from the test grounds and provided the Germans the first indication of the size of the landings over Cherbourg. I have no doubt attention would have turned to bombing from the Me 262.
Hitler, upset that his orders had been apparently ignored, suspended the program as a fighter (they could work on the bomber) and wouldn't talk on the topic until someone known for their congenial nature could talk to him. That may have delayed the airframe a little but certainly not much given the engine issues.
Had the Fuherers request for it to be a blitz bomber as well been acted upon even the Me 262 fighter may have had airbrakes when it did enter service and that would greatly have improved its performance as a fighter. Split flaps likely.
Bombing from the Me 262 required either the TSA 2D toss bombing sight (aimed in a shallow dive) or would need to be by a blind bombing system such as EGON, Zyklops or Neuling (installed at the end of the war). The Luftwaffe did delay the earlier TSA 2 bomb sight in order to get the TSA 2D and I wonder if that was a good move.
Which invasion? Was that the French invading France? The 262 started to be introduced in April 1944.
On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a corps of pilots to fly it.
The LW had many aircraft in service in June 1944, very few were seen in Normandy above the landing sites, the 262 would just be another. Any airfield in France where they were stationed would immediately become the number one target for allied bombers. It is easy to construct fantasy scenarios about what thousands of 262s or others would do but you cant stop thousands of tanks with cannon armed aircraft.Check your facts. You are off by at least 7 months in the case of fully operational squadrons and 3 months in terms of test squadrons that formed in July and that was confident enough to try an semi successful intercept on a recon Mosquito on July 25th 1944. In reality the hollow bladed Jumo 004B4 that made reliability more tollerable wasn't reaching squadrons till November 1944. If you think about it wouldn't we be hearing of Me 262 over the beaches of Normandy if the Me 262 was operational in April 1944 and the Overlord landings were on June the 6th. (2 months latter).
Its not worth me engaging with you on non technical issues and only leads us to go off topic.
The LW had many aircraft in service in June 1944, very few were seen in Normandy above the landing sites, the 262 would just be another. Any airfield in France where they were stationed would immediately become the number one target for allied bombers. It is easy to construct fantasy scenarios about what thousands of 262s or others would do but you cant stop thousands of tanks with cannon armed aircraft.
I thought the Me-262's already had some bomb-rack carrying capability, and that he merely wanted more. The fact that the pylons couldn't be plumbed for drop-tank carriage is strange (you said later fitted), as the Luftwaffe were among the first to use drop-tanks.Lets consider what might have been achieved had Adolph Hitler expectation been carried out:
1 Bomb racks would be fitted to the Me 262. These would latter become useful as drop tank positions greatly increasing the Me 262's range as an escort or reconnaissance aircraft.
That would have avoided Hitler's ire and he would be forced to accept the aircraft was not yet ready.
It could bomb using electronic blind bombing systems. (Fw 190F did use these) but that doesn't attack an invasion fleet.
I thought all operational variants had brakes fitted already? It seems like it would have been hard to control in combat with engines that responded somewhat slowly.3 This didn't work well in an Me 262 which tended to get in trouble with Dr Mach forcing the aircraft to slow down to attempt to bomb. The Me 262 bomber would thus need air brakes.
I always thought toss-bombing produced poor accuracy. I remember reading in the Cold War that the accuracy positively sucked and it was difficult to plunk bombs within 1500' of the intended target.4 Alternatively a toss bombing sight like the TSA 2D might be fitted. This used a precision barometric altimeter or alternatively FuG 101a radio altimeter) in combination with an accelerometer to automatically release the bombs in the pullup at the correct time. All the pilot need to is line up his gun sight and pull up and the bomb sight released at the correct point.
You thought very wrongly.I thought all operational variants had brakes fitted already? It seems like it would have been hard to control in combat with engines that responded somewhat slowly.
No, the Me262's original design and pre-production design was for a heavy fighter/interceptor.I thought the Me-262's already had some bomb-rack carrying capability, and that he merely wanted more.
When did they fit speed-brakes to the aircraft? Also, how long did it take for the Jumo 004 to spool up. I've heard numbers from 25-45 seconds.You thought very wrongly.
When did they fit speed-brakes to the aircraft?