Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”.

overbeck · Mar 13, 2021

Snowygrouch said:
This video and the validity of its points has already been thoroughly discussed elsewhere on this forum.... I particularly recommend the information dug up by "Drgondog" which come in
on "page" 5 onwards. (see in particular the documents dug up on Hap Arnold, and the stuff on tank pressurisation)

At 18:41 Greg tries to address the pressurisation question by presenting a P-47 flight operation instruction chart. He asserts the tank was "fully tested" to 30,000 feet, apparently only because 'Empty 200-gal belly tank' and '30000' appeared in different places on the same piece of paper. Aside from the difficulty in testing fuel feed from an empty tank, the tank is listed apparently only because it affects performance. It was possible to carry an empty one up to 30,000 ft, but that would be of no help to escort pilots.

33k in the air · Mar 13, 2021

overbeck said:
At 18:41 Greg tries to address the pressurisation question by presenting a P-47 flight operation instruction chart. He asserted the tank was "fully tested" to 30,000 feet, apparently only because 'Empty 200-gal belly tank' and '30000' appeared in different places on the same piece of paper. Aside from the difficulty in testing fuel feed from an empty tank, the tank is listed apparently only because it affects performance. It was possible to carry an empty one up to 30,000 ft, but that would be of no help to escort pilots.

Check out his video "B-17 vs Lancaster Payloads and Armor, the Truth!" in which, if I recall correctly, he tries to argue the only reason the B-17 didn't carry as large a bomb load as the Lancaster by using its external racks was due to the 'Bomber Mafia'. I pointed out in the comments that his calculation of range with those external bombs didn't factor in the time spent in formation assembly nor an operating reserve. I pointed out the drag and handling penalties associated with big external bombs, and quotes from some of Roger Freeman's books about the B-17's wing bomb rack usage.

It fell on deaf ears (er, blind eyes?).

33k in the air · Mar 13, 2021

Zipper730 said:
I thought 60-degrees was the cut-off between dive and glide-bombing? Did the USAAF & USN have the same criteria?

My understanding is that glide bombing was generally from a shallow angle, about 30º or so.

SaparotRob · Mar 13, 2021

33k in the air said:
Check out his video "B-17 vs Lancaster Payloads and Armor, the Truth!" in which, if I recall correctly, he tries to argue the only reason the B-17 didn't carry as large a bomb load as the Lancaster by using its external racks was due to the 'Bomber Mafia'. I pointed out in the comments that his calculation of range with those external bombs didn't factor in the time spent in formation assembly nor an operating reserve. I pointed out the drag and handling penalties associated with big external bombs, and quotes from some of Roger Freeman's books about the B-17's wing bomb rack usage.

It fell on deaf ears (er, blind eyes?).

I was hoping someone would bring up this video.
Full disclosure: the B-17 is my first love.
Followed by Caroline Jones as Morticia Adams.

SaparotRob · Mar 13, 2021

I was Eight.

Koopernic · Mar 14, 2021

Shortround6 said:
I think the Thunderbolts to Berlin in 1943 may be backwards projection.

Thunderbolts to Berlin in mid to late 1944 was possible(?) so why not claim it was only stubbornness/stupidity that they couldn't have done it in mid 1943 by adding piping and enough drop tanks?

Simply ignore better props and possibly the water injection fitted to P-47s over the 1943/44 winter.
Might also ignore the length of runway needed?
P-47D with 370 gallon internal (1943 P-47s had 305) and pair of 150 gallon drop tanks was rated at 600 mile radius.
But that is at 16600lbs take-off weight. Trying that weight with the toothpick propeller might require an awful lot of runway.

edit, not sure if the later planes got little things like different tires to handle the increased weight.

I don't think ADI (anti detonation injection) helped with increasing MTOW or hauling of extra fuel. Without ADI and at low altitude the prop was probably good enough. The paddle bladed prop combined with ADI was a way of overcoming the Fw 190 superiority at low medium altitudes.

Koopernic · Mar 14, 2021

SaparotRob said:
I was hoping someone would bring up this video.
Full disclosure: the B-17 is my first love.
Followed by Caroline Jones as Morticia Adams.

I live in a inner city area, used to be a bit run down, but near a university. Lots of goth girls and women around. I grew to love their love of black lace bodices, long figure hugging dresses. They were romantics at heart and I always found these girls polite and kind. I suspect Caroline Jones portrayal of Morticia many decades ago was a seminal inspiration.

Koopernic · Mar 14, 2021

Zipper730 said:
I thought 60-degrees was the cut-off between dive and glide-bombing? Did the USAAF & USN have the same criteria?

Greyman said:
It sounds like in this case it was aircraft-dependent, not service-dependent.

ie: when you're bombing in an A-36 over 72 degrees use this methodology, under 72 degrees use that methodology.

Determined more by the flying & vision characteristics of the A-36 and less by a textbook somewhere.

In the dive bombing methods developed by the USN the pilot dived at a predetermined angle towards the target and released at a predetermined altitude at the estimated speed. The pilots sight was "foresighted" (USN term) to compensate for Bomb trail error and wind so he put the cross hairs direct on target and released. Ofcourse in a vertical dive this is unnecessary. Dives at a steep near verticals angle apparently made it easier to track a moving target than pure verticals.

I think in glide bombing the pilot put the cross hairs on target and then pulled up and counted of to release the bombs in the pull-up. It's described how spitfires used a 45 degree dive and a countdown in the osprey book "spitfire versus the v weapons". In other words the pilot probably couldn't even see the target at release. The Luftwaffe developed a method of an adjustable second cross hairs on a ReVi reflector sight which the pilot aimed on to the target with the first cross hairs but then released upon a pull-up when it crossed the target.

If the Mk XIV or StuVi was used in glide bombing the bomb aimer or pilot could see a continuously computed impact point.

At angles below about 22 degrees trig functions are essentially linear and this probably simplified dive bombing a little.

AbitNutz · Mar 18, 2021

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Not sure if it is the greatest myth busted but one of my favorites...

The Germans called the P-38 the Fork Tailed Devil.

I fell for that one big time when I read a book by Martin Caidin. I think it was titled Fork-Tailed Devil. He was my favorite author till I went to college and learned how to do research. I still enjoyed his stories but sometimes the myth did override the reality.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 18, 2021

Yeap, good ole Caidin.

SpicyJuan11 · Mar 18, 2021

Koopernic said:
Lots of goth girls and women around.

Really? I thought Goths didn't exist anymore at all

Koopernic · Mar 18, 2021

SpicyJuan11 said:
Really? I thought Goths didn't exist anymore at all

Their blood runs through us.

SaparotRob · Mar 18, 2021

Koopernic said:
Their blood runs through us.

Try prune juice instead.

special ed · Mar 18, 2021

Reading through "Model Aircraft" magazine from Sept 1961, I saw this in the "letters" page. It concerned the quality of the British ETA .15 model engine, but brought up an interesting tidbit about the possibility of Mitsubishi and Kawasaki building RR merlins before WW2 began.

pbehn · Mar 18, 2021

Koopernic said:
Their blood runs through us.

My veins are so full of the blood of Brigantes, Parisi and Iceni tribes there is no space for an Ostrogoth or a Visigoth let a lone a real live Goth.

ARTESH · Mar 18, 2021

Some about LW and and other AF's tath are commonly said in Iran's cyberspace!!!

Luftwaffe was best in / at anything!

Luftwaffe never lost any planes to friendly fire!

Luftwaffe did not any war crimes!

Luftwaffe was not participated in death camps!

They never shot down damaged allied planes!

Gernany's allies had'nt any form of Airforce!

Kamikaze was the name of Japanese Airforce!

Kamikaze was an airport / air base!

Kamikaze was a japanese pilot with most victories!

And hundreds of other non sence things like these!

SaparotRob · Mar 18, 2021

pbehn said:
My veins are so full of the blood of Brigantes, Parisi and Iceni tribes there is no space for an Ostrogoth or a Visigoth let a lone a real live Goth.

Ever try a Goth Lite?

ARTESH · Mar 18, 2021

Mods, please delete this post!

SaparotRob · Mar 18, 2021

ARTESH said:
Some about LW and and other AF's tath are commonly said in Iran's cyberspace!!!

Luftwaffe was best in / at anything!

Luftwaffe never lost any planes to friendly fire!

Luftwaffe did not any war crimes!

Luftwaffe was not participated in death camps!

They never shot down damaged allied planes!

Gernany's allies had'nt any form of Airforce!

Kamikaze was the name of Japanese Airforce!

Kamikaze was an airport / air base!

Kamikaze was a japanese pilot with most victories!

And hundreds of other non sence things like these!

You should have put this post in the Greatest Myths This Site Busted thread.
I really like Kamikaze Airport!

pbehn · Mar 18, 2021

ARTESH said:
Some about LW and and other AF's tath are commonly said in Iran's cyberspace!!!

Luftwaffe was best in / at anything!

Luftwaffe never lost any planes to friendly fire!

Luftwaffe did not any war crimes!

Luftwaffe was not participated in death camps!

They never shot down damaged allied planes!

Gernany's allies had'nt any form of Airforce!

Kamikaze was the name of Japanese Airforce!

Kamikaze was an airport / air base!

Kamikaze was a japanese pilot with most victories!

And hundreds of other non sence things like these!

Well it took a genius to lose with a force like that on your side.

Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”.

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