Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained) (4 Viewers)

[buffnut453]

Again, the comedy value of this thread just keeps on giving and giving.

People had pointed out numerous times that escorting fighters would have to circle the base to form up. The Expert then cites a source that seems to contradict it...but he misses out the key part of the story where the source explicitly states they were flying a circle.

I've seen some impressive efforts at muddying the waters in debates on this forum, but that one really does take first prize.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Here is a P-39 restoration. Despite this thread, the P-39 is a very desirable warbird, and quite rare. If you're flying it VFR, it is down where its performance is good relative to other warbirds. Most of them don't spend a lot of time at 25,000 feet these days.




Seems like a good job of restoration. Hope to be showing one soon of a P-63!

That forward gearbox sure does sing! I've seen P39s a couple of times at airshows, but never close enough to hear that.

 

[Ascent]

Back when i was an engine tech in the RAF (A sootie to those in the know) the maintenance part of the squadron was split into two, A and B shift (pretty standard). Those of us on B-Shift called ourselves PART, Post A-Shift Recovery Team, because we were always having to sort out the mistakes they made.

I'm sure they felt the same about us.

 

[Stig1207]

On a serious note I found this on Joe Bauger's site Wartime Service of P-39 with USAAF
The 31st Fighter Group was provided with Airacobras in Southern England in August of 1942. Between August and October of 1942, the Group participated in missions against enemy targets in France. The Group suffered heavy losses in air-to-air combat against the Luftwaffe, and the 31st FG re-equipped with Spitfire Mk Vs.

I cant find any reference to the 31st fighter group using anything other than Spitfires in that period.

Joe must have got in a muddle with this one, according to this site 31st FG the unit travelled by sea to the UK without planes and converted to Spitfires. Their only claims / losses were on the Dieppe raid.

 

[pbehn]

Joe must have got in a muddle with this one, according to this site 31st FG the unit travelled by sea to the UK without planes and converted to Spitfires. Their only claims / losses were on the Dieppe raid.

If you read Drgondog's post 3356 on this thread he quotes actions by P-39s and a P-39 was claimed by A LW pilot. That site was one of the ones I was alluding to when I asked the question.

 

[pbehn]

Joe must have got in a muddle with this one, according to this site 31st FG the unit travelled by sea to the UK without planes and converted to Spitfires. Their only claims / losses were on the Dieppe raid.

With reference to the links below.

It is plausible that a pilot may think a plane with American markings was a P-39. But Hermichen was an ace pilot, by August 1942 he will have known what a Spitfire looked like as much as anyone in the air.

The National Interest: Blog

nationalinterest.org

German intelligence apparently did not realize that the Americans were flying Spitfires. When Oberleutnant Rolf Hermichen of Jagdgeschwader 26 shot down a fighter marked with the U.S. insignia, he claimed a P-39 Airacobra destroyed. No P-39s were in the air over Dieppe.

Focke-Wulf 190s Over Dieppe

Rolf Hermichen of 3./J.G. 26 claimed destruction of a P-39 at 11:38 (a case of mis-identification).

 

[Shortround6]

According to AHT (and the unit histories) the 81st fighter group and the 350th fighter group were in England in late 1942 with P-39s.

The Histories do not entirely agree with AHT (several sentences) but it seems that both units were at least partially equipped with ex-RAF aircraft still in the crates that had not been sent to Russia (or returned due to convoy turning back) The 350th was at least partially manned by US pilots from the Eagle squadrons and was activated in the UK.
Perhaps they did see some combat, none is noted in the brief unit histories I read. but essentially they trained in England for the forthcoming NA invasion. Due to the English winter weather some of the 350th pilots got around 20 hours time in the P-39s before undertaking the ferry flight to French Morocco. The two groups loose 15 planes on the ferry flight, many interned in Portugal. One may have been shot down on the way.

 

[drgondog]

I read Nanette, Edwards Park's first book about 20 years ago, so I knew the local library had a copy, so I checked it out a reread it last night, and today.
Not a big book, just 186 pages.

It describes their take off and joining up procedures.

P39 expert left out one important detail. A circle.

They did take off 2 by 2, then joined another 2 to form a flight.
Then the first 4 began a climbing circle, the other flights joined during the circling climb.
When everything was done right, they'd usually have all 4 flights joined by the time they'd completed one circle, and take a heading for their assigned mission.

A lot of the missions were done with just one flight, but joined other flights from another of the many fields around Port Moresby, P40s or P38s..

I'll quote Park from Nanette pg 18-19.
" But that wasn't the thing that was really wrong about the P-39 ( he's referring to it's tumbling habit ) The plane was simply underpowered for the kind of work it was supposed to do. It could not climb high enough or quickly enough, it could not go fast enough except in a dive, ( when it had a tendency to go too fast), it could not maneuver handily enough. It's controls were extremely delicate. The slightest hint of abruptness on the pilots part would be rewarded with a high speed stall .

Just the words of one man who flew the P-39

Further to the point - an 8th AF escort mission required multiplying the above by 3X to get three full squadrons (Plus usually 2 spares per squadron, and leaving out the fuel consumption of the last squadron as they sit 'warming up' prior to taxiing to the active.

 

[drgondog]

Joe must have got in a muddle with this one, according to this site 31st FG the unit travelled by sea to the UK without planes and converted to Spitfires. Their only claims / losses were on the Dieppe raid.

Actually, the universe is at odds with itself re: P-39 actually being flown by 31st FG in combat. The 8th AF VC detail Victory credits have 2 P-39 victories on 19 August, 1942. Frank Olynyk (whom I trust most of historians) has Spit V and Roger Freeman has Spitfire assigned to 31st upon arrival in Britain. JG 26 Hermichen stated Aircobra for August 19th - amidst another victory claim for a Spitfire in the same area around Dieppe.

I relied on 8th AF and JG 26 as primary source but have no dog in this hunt as I have never been certain. My logic is that 350th FG conclusively were assigned P-400 that RAF did not want. ALL my sources agree that, and that it was briefly assigned to 8th AF. My father's last USAF job was Dpty COS - Missiles Div, ADC to M.Gen Sandy McCorkle - former CO of 31st. McCorkle was NOT with 31st in England, joined in 1943 as CO. That said, he 'remembered' that 1st flew Aircobra's in England before conversion to Spits.

If so, where did they go - the 350th FG?

 

[GrauGeist]

That forward gearbox sure does sing! I've seen P39s a couple of times at airshows, but never close enough to hear that.

I've seen cutaway drawings of the gearbox but don't recall if the gears are straight-cut or helical, but it sure sounds alot like a Pete Jackson gear drive for a small block Chevy!

 

[tyrodtom]

Again, the comedy value of this thread just keeps on giving and giving.

People had pointed out numerous times that escorting fighters would have to circle the base to form up. The Expert then cites a source that seems to contradict it...but he misses out the key part of the story where the source explicitly states they were flying a circle.

I've seen some impressive efforts at muddying the waters in debates on this forum, but that one really does take first prize.

And still what Park did write was just the bare minimum , like I said earlier, dumbed down for the general public.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And still what Park did write was just the bare minimum , like I said earlier, dumbed down for the general public.

Or for non-pilots who read the manual

I think it's absolutely disgraceful when someone cherry picks to prove a point, especially on this forum. Great job Tom on calling this one out!

 

[pbehn]

Again, the comedy value of this thread just keeps on giving and giving.

People had pointed out numerous times that escorting fighters would have to circle the base to form up. The Expert then cites a source that seems to contradict it...but he misses out the key part of the story where the source explicitly states they were flying a circle.

I've seen some impressive efforts at muddying the waters in debates on this forum, but that one really does take first prize.

The novel suggested method would result in an angry looking formation of 50 aircraft in pairs, 25 miles across and 10,000ft separation in altitude from one side to the other.

 

[GregP]

Regarding the weight of the Allison Aux-Stage engine, our expert has been missing a basic point:

The E-series engines all had a drive gear on the front of the power section to interface with a driveshaft while the F-series engines all had a nose case and a propeller shaft so the aircraft could mount a propeller instead of run a driveshaft.

The V-1710-35 (E4 single-stage engine), as installed in the P-39 weighed in at 1,375 pounds. It was rated at 1,150 hp/3,000 rpm / 11,200 feet Military and 1,000 hp / 2,600 rpm / 10,800 feet max continuous.

The V-1710-93 (E11 2-stage engine with Auxiliary supercharger), as installed in the P-63A and C weighed in at 1,620 pounds. It was rated at 1,325 hp / 3,000 rpm / S.L. Military and 1,000 hp / 2,600 rpm / 20,000 feet max continuous.

The weight difference was 245 pounds. What our expert fails to comprehend is that the single stage engine had a carburetor and auxiliary section attached to the power section which was self-contained and had everything needed to run the engine. Carb, fuel lines, fuel diffuser, etc. The Aux-stage engine had all the items needed to run the engine moved to the Aux stage … like the carb, fuel lines, fuel diffuser, etc. The only thing remaining on the power section was an impeller and a much smaller impeller housing since the carb and everything else was mounted to the aux stage.

The weight of the aux stage was NOT the difference between the -35 and the -39. It was heavier because most of the former single stage parts were mounted on the aux stage, and the power section had an impeller mounted to it that was substantially lighter than the self-contained normal single-stage impeller section.

Next time I get over to Joe Yancey's shop, I'll ask about the weight, but I'm pretty sure it was around 275 pounds.

 

[BiffF15]

The novel suggested method would result in an angry looking formation of 50 aircraft in pairs, 25 miles across and 10,000ft separation in altitude from one side to the other.

In the movie Heartbreak Ridge, Clint Eastwoods character Gunny Highway said it best, when asked by the CO what the hell was going on, to which he replied, "It's a clusterf—k sir!".

Arriving at a fight in single file allows the enemy to bring a mass formation to bear against your line. Not a winning move.

 

[Stig1207]

Actually, the universe is at odds with itself re: P-39 actually being flown by 31st FG in combat. The 8th AF VC detail Victory credits have 2 P-39 victories on 19 August, 1942. Frank Olynyk (whom I trust most of historians) has Spit V and Roger Freeman has Spitfire assigned to 31st upon arrival in Britain. JG 26 Hermichen stated Aircobra for August 19th - amidst another victory claim for a Spitfire in the same area around Dieppe.

I relied on 8th AF and JG 26 as primary source but have no dog in this hunt as I have never been certain. My logic is that 350th FG conclusively were assigned P-400 that RAF did not want. ALL my sources agree that, and that it was briefly assigned to 8th AF. My father's last USAF job was Dpty COS - Missiles Div, ADC to M.Gen Sandy McCorkle - former CO of 31st. McCorkle was NOT with 31st in England, joined in 1943 as CO. That said, he 'remembered' that 1st flew Aircobra's in England before conversion to Spits.

If so, where did they go - the 350th FG?

I have no dog (or groundhog) in this either; but something's not right and I think that Joe Baugher got mixed up with the the 31st Pursuit Group (39th, 40th, 41st fs) that flew P-39's in the States.

Redesignated 31st Fighter Group in May 1942. Moved to England, May-June 1942. Assigned to Eighth Air Force and equipped with Spitfires. Entered combat in August 1942. Supported a raid made by Canadian, British, American, and French forces at Dieppe on 19 August. Escorted bombers and flew patrol and diversionary missions until Oct.

The squadrons are also redesignated: 307th, 308th, 309th.

Edited to correct the squadrons for the 31st FG.

31st Fighter Group in World War II - Honor Roll Project

 

[drgondog]

I have no dog (or groundhog) in this either; but something's not right and I think that Joe Baugher got mixed up with the the 31st Pursuit Group (39th, 40th, 41st fs) that flew P-39's in the States.


The squadrons are also redesignated: 334th, 335th, 336th.

31st Fighter Group in World War II - Honor Roll Project

Stig, the Eagle Squadrons were so designated (4th FG).

The 31st FG had 307,308 and 309FS, all organized into 31st FG in May 1942. You can find the 39th, 40th and 41st in the 35th FG. My father commanded the 35th in Japan - we were at Johnson AFB. Jeff Ethell's father Irv was a 39th FS CO during our time there.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Here is an American Southern P-39

 

[pbehn]

Rolf Gunther Hermichen was in the LW at the start of the war, served in the French campaign, The Battle of Britain, on the eastern front before returning to France in 1942. He claimed a Hurricane at the end of July which was a Hurricane, a Spitfire on the 18 August, another Spitfire on the 19 August plus another he claimed as an Airacobra. This was his 18th claim 5 previous claims for Spitfires. He must have had reasons to think it was a P-39.

Focke-Wulf 190s Over Dieppe

 

[buffnut453]

Here is an American Southern P-39

View attachment 634547

Someone's had too many Big Macs, haven't they? Or is it just the nose armour and gas heater that make him look fat?