Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

lesofprimus said:

US forces did a lot in europe but the meat grinder was in eastern front. In my opinion most of the really critical battles were fought there. In single battle there could be casualties what were equal at size what were whole US losses in second world war.

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UMmmmmmm.....

In single battle there could be casualties what were equal at size what were whole US losses in second world war.

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Do u have any idea what u are saying????? The #'s involved here???

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I hope we are all just misunderstanding his writing because yes it does sound crazy what he is saying. As for the next post, if the allies had not invaded Russian I think both parties would have fought until they were completely expended. I do think Germany would be able to defeat Russia but even if the Russians defeated Germany then, I dont think they would be in any position to conquer the rest of Europe, they would have been militarily spent.

lesofprimus said:

US forces did a lot in europe but the meat grinder was in eastern front. In my opinion most of the really critical battles were fought there. In single battle there could be casualties what were equal at size what were whole US losses in second world war.

Click to expand...

UMmmmmmm.....

In single battle there could be casualties what were equal at size what were whole US losses in second world war.

Click to expand...

Do u have any idea what u are saying????? The #'s involved here???

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Yes I am!

And again I am very sorry of my first post. It was very bad and I am ashamed. I am not trying to dishonore or underestimate any allies deeds and what they have done. All allied soldiers who died or fought in WWII are respected. And I believe that many German soldiers fought without Nazi views but in believe of fatherland. But still in one single battle eg. Stalingrad hundreds of thousands soldiers perished. "Uncle Joe" and Mr. Hitler created battles which are huge and unbelievably costly to both sides. Can You imagine single battle where 300 000 US, British or any other allied soldiers have perished. Meat grinder was in eastern front and there was two leaders who did not care about casualties. Stalin later learned, but his paranoid mentality was ( mildly saying ) an unfortunate for Soviet people.

I am glad that Allies won and Finland survived. Last year I buried with my family WWII veteran ( my uncle ) and I have known several of them. So don't feel offended of my opinions I am not trying to offend anybody, winners or loosers of WWII. And I think that we all won after defeat of Germany and Japan.

Pertsajakilu

Dont worry no offense was taken but what about D-Day where 7000 allied soldiers died on a beach (my numbers may be wrong, actually I am pretty sure they are way off), and the Battle of the Bulge. How about the air war over western Europe, thousands upon thousands of US and British airmen died. You have to account into a whole here, neither front was pretty. I do agree that the East Front was far more brutal then the west but war is hell no matter what.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Dont worry no offense was taken but what about D-Day where 7000 allied soldiers died on a beach (my numbers may be wrong, actually I am pretty sure they are way off), and the Battle of the Bulge. How about the air war over western Europe, thousands upon thousands of US and British airmen died. You have to account into a whole here, neither front was pretty. I do agree that the East Front was far more brutal then the west but war is hell no matter what.

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They did not died for nothing. What the airmen did saved a lot of Allied soldiers later in the war and shortened the war and the invasion of course. Also the very important help of US food and trucks accelerated Soviet victory consiredably.


What I was trying to say was that Russian part of the war is often forgotten. And for the Hollywood media usually gives us totally single sided view what happened. I do not care, but many people believe that view ( like new version of Pearl Harbour). And I believe that Western Allies were not ready to took such a casualties of war than the Russians. This is why I believe that the war was won in eastern front. Somebody had to took German juggernaut and bleed it to death. I believe that no one nation in the world could have done it. The scope of casualties are totally different in eastern front. I just don't get it, because it was so huge. But I admit that speculation of facing 3 000 000 men against invasion of Normandy is stupid.

Normandy without eastern front is just speculation without any reality. Stalin would have started a war against Germany because he was waiting for it but not in 1941.


I am not saying that soldiers of the western front soldiers died for nothing. Russian front is forgotten and it saved a lot of dead US, British, Canadien, French....etc troops. Likewise US material help helped a lot of Russians. German fighting force was decimated in Russia. Bah..... Why I coudn't say that before..... because it's my simple opinion . Argh... think too much at the same time. Good bye... better watch looney tunes and forgot this forum.


Pertsajakilu

And the Eastern Front without Normany is just speculation.

Honestly, I think the Western Allies would have had a better chance. They had the strategice bombing which was grinding down the German war machine in its own right (to which the Soviets added nothing - not rude, just a fact). Also, the Western powers didn't typically approach a problem merely by throwing more soldiers into the "meat grinder." Soviet commanders often viewed there me as commodeties to be spent and that was a major reason for their high casualty figures.

The German war machine hadn't been spent until the Ardennes Offensive (1944), it was only then that they lost their last ounce of offensive strength.
Factually the Germans lost the majority of their troops on the Eastern front. However, without the Western Lend-Lease (Yes, 14% of British war production was for the Soviet Union) the Soviet Union would have caved in. Mobility was provided by the 500,000 trucks, jeeps and APCs provided by the USA (Ubiyat Sukinsyna Adolfa [sp?]. If anyone knows Russian..then they'll laugh).

The German war machine was kept from reaching its full potential by Western bombing campaigns. German shipping (from Norway, Sweden to Germany) was prevented by the Royal Navy. Vital oil fields in North Africa were deprived by the British. Romanian oil fields were bombed to dust by the USAAF and RAF. Tiger tanks that would otherwise smash Soviet tanks to dust were deprived of fuel by Western powers.

I know no one power could have won it alone. The meat grinder in the East was terrible but it'd have certainly been in favour of the Germans without the West. And the beach landings in Normandy would have never worked had their been no Ost Front.

And Germany invaded Russia with 4.5 million people. 10,000 were lost on Omaha beach, alone.

I agree with you fully Plan D. The whole war was a collective effort by the allies. If the US and England had not supplied Russia then Russia certainly would have capitulated they were no more ready for the German Invasion then the Germans were. At the same time if there had been no Eastern Front I dont think the western powers could have done the Normandy invasion. Germany would have been able to put her whole military might in France and stop the invasion before it left the beaches however I do not think the allies would have been foolish eneough to invade at that time then. So as you see the both the US and England relied on the Russians and Russia relied on the western allies to open up a second front.

I too agree, it was a combine effort.

Had Russia folded, I'm virtually sure the war would have finally ended with a combination of anthrax and nuclear bombs being dropped on Germany over a very short period in an attempt to obliterate them before they could respond in kind.

=S=

Lunatic

That is a possibility. I dont think the allies would have wanted to get stuck fighting a German army that was not fighting two or more fronts. We can not forget about Italy.

I think we all agree that it was a combined effort and everyone contributed and bled for the cause. I also think that most of us know that a bulk of what Hollywood churns out is factually incorrect and sensationalized with a distinctly US favor. There are exceptions, but a few horribly inaccurates are Pearl Harbor, U-571 (entertaining, but that was a BRITISH operation, not US). Saving Private Ryan was better and held better to the horrible realities of war.

As an aside, when we were preparing the Battle of Britain exhibit, I was asked to gather names of Americans that fought in the battle. After a cursory look, I opted to not include them as there were a small handful of Americans that actually fought in the BoB and the glory belonged to the British airmen. I understand that the Americans that did fight are a small part and I wanted to focus to be on Britain, not America. In the end, there was no list of Americans that fought in the BoB and it was a nice display with the basic fact and no slant. In other words, No Hollywood!

The WWII veterans that saw a pre-screening of the Pearl Harbor movie all poo-poo'd it and several boycotted the film.

I agree with you on that and I comend you for leaving out the list of Americans in the BoB. It did not need to be there. Yes there contributions were just as good but the BoB was Englands finest hour and they needed to be celebrated for it.

Mind you - The Americans who fought in the BoB were volunteers to a man. You have to have total respect for people who realised that something had to be done to stop Hitler, and went and did something about it off their own bat, rather than waiting to be moved along by events.

Anyway, on the topic of films, if you want to see something that's as far away from Hollywood as you can get, Joseph Vilsmaier's film 'Stalingrad' is a good one to go for. Ryan has nothing on this one for total nihilistic brutality. Like Ryan, it has it's fair share of gore, but its the way that it grinds its way to the depressing and inevitable conclusion that puts it at the top of my war horror list.

I understand your intentions, Evan, but I believe the Americans who died for what they believed in the BoB should be commended. I agree with what has been said that it was "Britain's finest hour" but something should be done to acknowledge the contributions of the Americans, French, Poles, and Cechs who were involved in the same battle. I guess the trick, with this whole conversation, is giving proper honor to each nation and man without detracting from the others. I am open to suggestions on how to do that . . .

Everyone bow ur head for 10 seconds after reading this post, to pay respect to all the military personel from many different countries, who gave their time and lives for the preservation of democracy in Britian.....

evangilder said:

As an aside, when we were preparing the Battle of Britain exhibit, I was asked to gather names of Americans that fought in the battle. After a cursory look, I opted to not include them as there were a small handful of Americans that actually fought in the BoB and the glory belonged to the British airmen. I understand that the Americans that did fight are a small part and I wanted to focus to be on Britain, not America. In the end, there was no list of Americans that fought in the BoB and it was a nice display with the basic fact and no slant. In other words, No Hollywood!

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And in so doing you are just as guilty of revisionist history as Hollywood is!

Pilots of the Eagle Squadrons:

No. 71 Squadron Roster (81 pilots)
James K. Alexander
Charles F. Ambrose
Luke E. Allen
Newton Anderson
Paul R. Anderson
Stanley M. Anderson
Thomas J. Andrews
Rodger H. Atkinson
John Butler Ayer
Charles E. Bateman
Wayne A. Becker
Duane W. Beeson
Ernest R. Bitmead
Vernon A. Boehle
Victor R. Bono
Robert A. Boock
William O. Brite
Raymond C. Care
Lawrence A. Chatterton
Walter M. Churchill
James A. Clark
Oscar H. Coen
Gilmore C. Daniel
Gregory A. Daymond
Arthur G. Donahue
Forrest P. Dowling
William R. Driver
John DuFour
William R. Dunn
Jack E. Evans
Hillard S. Fenlaw
Morris W. Fessler
William M. L. Fiske III
John F. Flynn
Victor J. France
C. O. Galbraith
Don Geffene
William D. Geiger
Humprey T. Gilbert
James A. Gray
William I. Hall
James C. Harrington
Joseph F. Helgason
Howard D. Hively
Walter J. Hollander
Alfred H. Hopson
William T. Humphrey
William B. Inabinet
Joseph M. Kelly
Byron F. Kennerly
Vernon C. Keough
Stanley M. Kolendorski
Phillip H. Leckrone
John F. Lutz
John J. Lynch
Nat Maranz
Robert L. Mannix
Harold F. Marting
Sam Mauriello
George S. Maxwell
Ben F. Mays
Carroll W. McColpin
Thomas P. McGerty
James L. McGinnis
Richard D. McMinn
Michael G. McPharlin
Stanley T. Meares
Henry L. Mills
Edward T. Miluck
Richard A. Moore
W. Brewster Morgan
William H. Nichols
Leo S. Nomis
Virgil W. Olson
Edwin E. Orbison
William T. O'Regen
Wendell Pendleton
Chesley G. Peterson
Steve N. Pisanos
Eugene M. Potter
Robert L. Prizer
Peter Provenzano
Arthur F. Roscoe
Gilert C. Ross
Dean H. Satterlee
Ross O. Scarborough
Anthony J. Seaman
Robert S. Sprague
Hubert L. Stewart
Harold H. Strickland
R. H. Tann
Kenneth S. Taylor
William D. Taylor
William E. G. Taylor
George Teicheira
Eugene Q. Tobin
Reginald Tongue
Charles W. Tribken
Murray S. Vosburg
Thomas C. Wallace
Rufus C. Ward
Jack W. Weir
Gordon H. Whitlow
Henry Woodhouse
Frank G. Zavakos

No. 121 Squadron Roster (81 pilots)
Thomas W. Allen
Fred E. Almos
Frederick C. Austin
Ernest D. Beatie
Leon M. Blanding
Carl O. Bodding
Douglas E. Booth
Frank R. Boyles
Robert V. Brossmer
John I. Brown
John A. Campbell
George C. Carpenter
Norman R. Chap
Howard M. Coffin
Forrest M. Cox
William J. Daley
Bruce C. Downs
Joseph E. Durham
Selden R. Edner
Paul M. Ellington
Roy M. Evans
Gene B. Fetrow
Frank M. Fink
Phillip J. Fox
Ralph W. Freiberg
Frederick A. Gamble
Jack D. Gilliland
James E. Griffin
Chester P. Grimm
Gilbert O. Halsey
James R. Happel
Charles A. Hardin
Kenneth R. Holder
William L. Jones
Jack L. Kearney
William P. Kelly
Hugh C. Kennard
Loran L. Laughlin
Jackson B. Mahon
Clifford H. Marcus
Clarence L. Martin
Earl W. Mason
Joseph G. Matthews
Richard E. McHan
Donald W. McLeod
Collier C. Mize
John. J. Mooney
Herbert T. Nash
Lyman D. O'Brien
Julian M. Osborne
Cadman V. Padgett
Vernon A. Parker
Richard F. Patterson
James E. Peck
Peter R. Powell
Lawson F. Reed
Donald H. Ross
James M. Sanders
Warren V. Shenk
Nicholas D. Sinetos
Leroy A. Skinner
John T. Slater
Bradley Smith
Fred C. Smith
Fonzo D. Smith
Kenneth G. Smith
Frank J. Smolinsky
Aubrey C. Stanhope
Malta L. Stepp
Benjamin A. Taylor
James L. Taylor
Clifford R. Thorpe
Reade F. Tilley
Thaddeus H. Tucker
Fred R. Vance
Vivian E. Watkins
Royce C. Wilkinson
W. Dudley Williams
Donald K. Willis
Donald A. Young
Norman D. Young

No. 133 Squadron Roster (79 pilots)
Richard L. Alexander
William A. Arends
Henry J. Ayres
William H. Baker
Charles S. Barrell
Richard N. Beaty
Joe L. Bennent
Edwin H. Bicksler
Donald J. Blakeslee
Richard G. Braley
Edward G. Brittell
Hugh C. Brown
George R. Bruce
Charles A. Cook
James G. Coxetter
Stephen H. Crowe
Ben P. DeHaven
Eric Doorly
Wilson V. Edwards
Grant E. Eichar
David R. Florance
William K. Ford
Tony A. Gallo
Donald S. Gentile
James A. Goodson
Leroy Gover
Dick D. Gudmundsen
Harry C. Hain
Fletcher Hancock
Carter W. Harp
Robert D. Hobert
Marian E. Jackson
H. A. Johnston
Karl K Kimbro
Coburn C. King
Donald E. Lambert
Lyman S. Loomis
Andrew Mamedoff
Joseph G. Matthews
Hugh H. McCall
Carrol W. McColpin
Cecil E. Meierhoff
George H. Middleton
Carl H. Miley
Ervin L. Miller
Denver E. Miner
George E. Mirsch
John Mitchellweis
Moran S. Morris
Robert S. Mueller
Don D. Nee
James C. Nelson
Gene P. Neville
Gilbert I. Omens
Kenneth D. Peterson
Robert L. Pewitt
Hiram A. Putnam
Chesley H. Robertson
Leonard T. Ryerson
Seymour M. Schatzberg
Fred R. Scudday
William C. Slade
Glen J. Smart
Dennis D. Smith
Robert E. Smith
Walter G. Soares
George B. Sperry
Andrew J. Stephenson
Roy N. Stout
Edwin D. Taylor
Eric H. Thomas
William R. Wallace
John W. Warner
Vivian E. Watkins
Samuel F. Whedon
William J. White
Walter C. Wicker
Roland L. Wolfe
Gilbert G. Wright

A mighty big "handful" don't you think?

That's 242 Americans who flew for Britain prior to the USA joining the war and about another 6 months after the USA did enter the war. If I read and count correctly, one was killed in 1940, 32 in 1941, and 41 in 1942, all while serving the RAF defending Britain!

Eagle Squadron History <--- well worth the read

And you European's wonder why the genral feeling in the USA is that you don't appreciate the sacrifices made by Americans on your behalf in WWI and WWII ???

=S=

Lunatic

Oh, I don't think anyone is trying to deny or diminish the contributions of the Eagle Squadrons in the RAF, but wasn't that formed after what is generally considered to be "The Battle of Britain"?

There certainly were American volunteer pilots in RAF squadrons during the BoB, like (as has been mentioned) Czechs, Poles, French, Norwegians, and the list goes on. All deserve their due credit.

I dont think anyone here is trying to take away from the US contributions RG_Lunatic. All evan was trying to say is that he did not want the display at the museum to take away from the British pilots, he wanted the focus on it to be the British pilots. Is that so wrong. We all know that the Eagle Squadrons were a major part in BoB. And we all know that what these American pilots did was a great sacrifice in the defense of Europes freedom, and they all should be commended but I think you are misunderstanding evanglider. He is in no way trying to take away from them.

oops that posted twice for somereason.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I dont think anyone here is trying to take away from the US contributions RG_Lunatic. All evan was trying to say is that he did not want the display at the museum to take away from the British pilots, he wanted the focus on it to be the British pilots. Is that so wrong. We all know that the Eagle Squadrons were a major part in BoB. And we all know that what these American pilots did was a great sacrifice in the defense of Europes freedom, and they all should be commended but I think you are misunderstanding evanglider. He is in no way trying to take away from them.

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71 sqaudron was flying during the BoB proper. The others came in at the end of it, but they were training during it. They had offered up their lives when they were most needed and the danger was at its peak.

I can understand emphasizing the British participants. However I find it inappropriate to totally omit the Eagle squadron pilots.

I dont think anyone totally omited the Eagle Squadron. I think you are reading to much into it.