What is Latin for tabloid?
Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2
- Thread starter NightHawk
- Start date
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I'd be a little embarrassed if it turns out to be tabloid.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
You need to go back farther. The English word you need is "bard" or the Norse "skáld"
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
"Acta Diurna"
(officially published from 59 b.c. onward)
Glider
Major
Taking your comments one at a time
Its an absolute certainty. For the second front to come from anywhere but the UK is beyond the realms of possibility. For the invasion the whole of the UK was an armed camp with millions of servicemen and heaven only knows how much military equipment. It simply couldn't have come from anywhere else
The war in Russia was a desperately close run conflict. With the German forces reinforced by those that were not needed in Europe. These reinforcements alone could easily tip the balance. The volume of LL given to the Russians was prodigious. In many ways the Russian conflict was similar to the Pacific in that logistics played a massive part and without the vehicles, trucks, railroad stock, Railroad engines, track, raw materials of Aluminium and other metals Russia would have been in deep trouble. The tanks and in particular British Matilda's and Valentines were not up to the standard of the T34 granted, but they became available while the Russian factories were being moved and were at least as good as the obsolete tanks the Russians still had in service, in considerable numbers.
If the Battle of the Atlantic had been lost then there wouldn't have been any route through the ME. If the Battle of the Atlantic had been lost and the UK out of the fight there may well not have been any LL to Russia. America was rightly proud of it being the Arsenal of Democracy, and Russia was far from being a democracy.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I've read about lend lease and frequently some of the Western Allies equipment gets knocked compared to Soviet equipment. That's because folks who are interested in this usually focus on tanks and planes. Overlooked are trucks, trains, WIRE, yes wire, and the other items Glider mentioned. Things that Soviet industry could "bypass" and get on with the manufacture of tanks, planes, etc. I can't see Stalin, or anyone in his government who wished to live, give any credit to the Decadent Capitalists for LL equipment. This would explain the lack of coverage by the Soviet press. I admit my opinion might be based on hearsay.
Glider
Major
Here is a good source. Its a Russian report on the Lend Lease material supplied by the USA to Russia
df78d3da0fe55d965333035cd9d4ee2770550653.pdf (histrf.ru)
A couple of Highlights
Armor steel had a special place in these shipments, especially in the production of tanks, self-propelled guns and other equipment. Mobilization reserve of armored steel in the Soviet Union before the war was small and did not cover even 6-month industry needs. According to some data, 525.4 thousand tons of rolled steel of all types was delivered to the USSR under Lend-Lease. Every month, the country received about half of average amount of Soviet production of armored steel. Special steel for gun barrel drifting was also delivered
Moreover, copper deficiency in our country decreased largely due to the imports of communications equipment from the United States. For example, the USSR received 956.7 thousand miles of field telephone cable, 2.1 thousand miles of marine cable and 1.1 thousand miles of underwater cable. A lot of radio stations, receivers and radars, produced from copper, were also stationed
During the war, 622 thousand tons of rails were delivered under LendLease. This represents about 56.5% of the total domestic production of rails from mid-1941 to the end of 1945. If excluding narrow gauge rails that were not supplied under lend-lease, then the American supplies made 83.3% of the total production of the Soviet broad gauge rails. Thus, more than half of rails used on Soviet railways during the war came from the United States. The sharp decline in the production of rails in Soviet industry allowed to send extra power and resources of steel to produce weapons (in 1945, rails production made 13% from the 1940 level, and in 1944 - only 5.4%). Lend-Lease supplied not only the rails with armature, but also rolled railway wheels and axles. At that time the USSR did not have technology and capacity to fabricate them, so it had to produce them of cast iron or steel.
Marshal Zhukov gave an assessment of metal supply in the USSR. His remarks given in 1963, which were stored in the Central Archives of the Russian Defense Ministry, are listed below: «Right now they say that the Allies never helped us... But you cannot deny that Americans drove many materials, without which we would not be — 120 — able to form our reserves and could not continue the war ... And how much steel they supplied! Could we quickly establish the production of tanks, if not for American aid? And now they show it in a way that we had plenty of sources.»
The following is a statement from the USA included in the report which the Authors say 'It differs from our data, but in general, provides a comprehensive picture.'
By November 30, 1944, the Soviet Union was supplied with the following number of arms and equipment: 12,200 aircraft (the largest number in comparison with other countries), 135,000 machine guns, 294,000 tons of explosives, 6,000 tanks, 1,800 self-propelled guns, 13,000 pistols, 3,300 armored personnel carriers, 8,200 guns of different calibers (including antitank), 5,500 artillery tractors. In addition, the USSR received 1,300,300 tons of oil and 638,000 tons of chemicals. With the help of Lend-Lease, the problem of uniform for Soviet troops was solved. It earlier emerged as a result of the loss and destruction of many factories. By November 1944, 11 million pairs of combat boots, 97 million yards of cotton fabric, and 50 million yards of woolen goods were delivered to the Soviet Union.»
df78d3da0fe55d965333035cd9d4ee2770550653.pdf (histrf.ru)
A couple of Highlights
Armor steel had a special place in these shipments, especially in the production of tanks, self-propelled guns and other equipment. Mobilization reserve of armored steel in the Soviet Union before the war was small and did not cover even 6-month industry needs. According to some data, 525.4 thousand tons of rolled steel of all types was delivered to the USSR under Lend-Lease. Every month, the country received about half of average amount of Soviet production of armored steel. Special steel for gun barrel drifting was also delivered
Moreover, copper deficiency in our country decreased largely due to the imports of communications equipment from the United States. For example, the USSR received 956.7 thousand miles of field telephone cable, 2.1 thousand miles of marine cable and 1.1 thousand miles of underwater cable. A lot of radio stations, receivers and radars, produced from copper, were also stationed
During the war, 622 thousand tons of rails were delivered under LendLease. This represents about 56.5% of the total domestic production of rails from mid-1941 to the end of 1945. If excluding narrow gauge rails that were not supplied under lend-lease, then the American supplies made 83.3% of the total production of the Soviet broad gauge rails. Thus, more than half of rails used on Soviet railways during the war came from the United States. The sharp decline in the production of rails in Soviet industry allowed to send extra power and resources of steel to produce weapons (in 1945, rails production made 13% from the 1940 level, and in 1944 - only 5.4%). Lend-Lease supplied not only the rails with armature, but also rolled railway wheels and axles. At that time the USSR did not have technology and capacity to fabricate them, so it had to produce them of cast iron or steel.
Marshal Zhukov gave an assessment of metal supply in the USSR. His remarks given in 1963, which were stored in the Central Archives of the Russian Defense Ministry, are listed below: «Right now they say that the Allies never helped us... But you cannot deny that Americans drove many materials, without which we would not be — 120 — able to form our reserves and could not continue the war ... And how much steel they supplied! Could we quickly establish the production of tanks, if not for American aid? And now they show it in a way that we had plenty of sources.»
The following is a statement from the USA included in the report which the Authors say 'It differs from our data, but in general, provides a comprehensive picture.'
By November 30, 1944, the Soviet Union was supplied with the following number of arms and equipment: 12,200 aircraft (the largest number in comparison with other countries), 135,000 machine guns, 294,000 tons of explosives, 6,000 tanks, 1,800 self-propelled guns, 13,000 pistols, 3,300 armored personnel carriers, 8,200 guns of different calibers (including antitank), 5,500 artillery tractors. In addition, the USSR received 1,300,300 tons of oil and 638,000 tons of chemicals. With the help of Lend-Lease, the problem of uniform for Soviet troops was solved. It earlier emerged as a result of the loss and destruction of many factories. By November 1944, 11 million pairs of combat boots, 97 million yards of cotton fabric, and 50 million yards of woolen goods were delivered to the Soviet Union.»
Already before Pearl Harbour, the Marines were in Iceland and from Iceland, they could go to the Shetland Islands and Inverness .
And, even without Overlord,US would be able to win by nuking the German cities .
The loss of the Battle of the Atlantic (which was out of the question )would not prevent LL goods to go to the ME and the Caucasus .
The war in Russia was never a close run conflict : at the end of the summer of 1941 ,the conclusion was that Germany had lost and that the Soviets would be in Berlin .Without or with LL .
Last point : US did not fight for democracy,or for Britain, but against Nazism and Germany .
They were already helping the Soviets BEFORE PH .
Glider
Major
If you believe that the Shetland Islands is a substitute for the UK then I can only suggest you do some research. While your at it, you might want to look up where Inverness is
If that's your get out of jail card then it applies to anyone
Pease tell me how you get to the Med without crossing the Atlantic?
. I would love to know where you got that conclusion from.
But if the UK was out of the fight would they?
One point : the legend of the boots :do you know what was the production of boots by the Soviets and what was their stock on June 22 1941 and do you know how many boots the Red Army needed and got ?the 11 million LL boots were less than 10 % of the boots used by the Red Army .
It is the same for the 6000 LL tanks : in June 1941 the Soviets had 22000 tanks and they produced another 60000 during the war . And: 13000 pistols is less than one pistol for 2000 soldiers .
About Zhukov : we can easily ignore what he said,as , before LL started, he had already been fired as chief of staff,and as one of a lot of front commanders, he had no information about LL deliveries .
Barbarossa had already failed before the first LL deliveries arrived in the USSR .
Distance Inverness-Shetland islands : 224 km .
And when the Marines and the Free British Legion were in Inverness ,who would stop them in their advance to London ?
To go to the ME (NOT the Mediterranean ) ,it was not needed to cross the Northern Atlantic .
Till September 1943 LL convoys did not use the Mediterranean ,because of the Italian danger : they took the long route thru SA.
Glider
Major
I knew you would pick on the pistols and boots but to leave them out would have been misleading.
You may want to think about how many tanks Russia could have produced with less than 50% of the available armour plate, a similar loss of aluminium for aircraft and engines for the tanks and a massive reduction in the rail network to move the material across the vastness of Russia.
I am still waiting to hear who stated that 'Barbarossa had already failed before the first LL deliveries arrived in the USSR' Certainly Stalin applied a huge amount of pressure to get additional supplies and aircraft, in particular Spitfires and P39's.
You may want to think about how many tanks Russia could have produced with less than 50% of the available armour plate, a similar loss of aluminium for aircraft and engines for the tanks and a massive reduction in the rail network to move the material across the vastness of Russia.
I am still waiting to hear who stated that 'Barbarossa had already failed before the first LL deliveries arrived in the USSR' Certainly Stalin applied a huge amount of pressure to get additional supplies and aircraft, in particular Spitfires and P39's.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Don't forget "Roosevelt Sausage".
Glider
Major
There was so much more you could add, from food to modern Radar, which Russia was almost totally dependent on Lend Lease and everything in between.
A fleet of U Boats would do that.
Glider
Major
Personally I like the idea that the Shetland Islands population about 15,000 has the infrastructure to support literally millions of servicemen and their equipment. Have you seen the weather in the Shetlands!!
For nine months I used to drive from Teesside to Wick which takes you through Inverness, it is great fun in winter. Inverness was a fishing port, not much of a port or harbour there at all.
Having spent a winter in Wick and another in Tain I have a good idea of what its like in the Shetlands
Glider
Major
Than you know exactly what I am talking about
There is a good reason why the Romans and English never went there, few Scots did either. The weather in 1940-45 was atrocious.
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
America sent fifteen million pair of combat boots via LL to the USSR. That speaks volumes about our hopes and aims for keeping the Red Army in the field and moving. That's not counting the trucks, or the various fuels for equipment. The wire is another easily-overlooked contribution.
That sums up the value that both nations put upon logistics -- hardly surprising given the enormous size of the Eastern Front.
I do think Stalin paid the odd compliment to LL, but from what I've read he wasn't much prone to giving compliments anyway.
