Helicopters in WWII films

[KiwiBiggles]

A friend who is a lecturer in film studies recently asked me about the appearance of helicopters in films set in WWII.

One of his questions was about the hilarious "Where Eagles Dare", where the German general is flown in to the castle in a Bell B47. Presumably one could stretch a point and say that the Sioux was standing in for a Fa 223; but then, compared to all the other weirdness in that film, it's almost believable.

His other query was a bit more interesting. In the 1981 spy film "Eye of the Needle", which stars Donald Sutherland as a Nazi agent in Britain looking for information about the D-Day landings, there is a scene where he photographs dummy aircraft on an East Anglian airfield; and among the aircraft there are several Sikorsky R-4 helicopters. The WWII service of the R-4 was, as far as I can tell, restricted to the USAAF in the CBI, where they were used for rescue work. The first mention of them being in the UK was not until January 1945 when the RAF started to evaluate them as the Hoverfly I.

So, is at all possible that some early R-4s were in the UK in early-mid 1944? Or any other helicopters of any sort?

 

[GrauGeist]

You are correct in your timeline for the R-4's arrival to Britain for service with the RAF (and later Army and FAA).

They may have been arriving by late 1944 (November/December) but would not have been set for service until they had the training groups set up (January 1945 onward).

 

[michaelmaltby]

Joseph Heller mentions helicopters in Catch 22 ... but that is hardly a voice of realism

 

[Graeme]

The chopper close up seen in "Eye of the Needle" is a Westland Widgeon G-ANLW made up for the movie...

 

[stona]

Only a 10-11 year anachronism then

Cheers

Steve

 

[pinehilljoe]

Also the post reminds me of an interview I listened to of William E. Butterworth, penname W.E.B Griffin, author of the Corps, Men at War plus many others.

He said "I'm a novelist not an historian" when questioned about some historical inaccuracies in his books. Same for Alistair McLean and Ken Follet.

 

[stona]

"I'm a novelist not an historian"

It's a poor excuse. I know many novelists and writers of fiction do extensive research to 'get their facts right'. I'm not suggesting that historical inaccuracy makes a poor novel, film, whatever, per se, but it doesn't help.

In the case of the helicopters in films mentioned above, the film makers had little choice, a bit like the Buchons in the BoB film. They might not look 100% correct, but they are better than the model Ju 87s

Cheers

Steve.

 

[herman1rg]

I'm sure there are many anachronisms in WW2 films.

Messerschmitt Bf 108 anyone?.....................

 

[pinehilljoe]

I'm sure there are many anachronisms in WW2 films.

Messerschmitt Bf 108 anyone?.....................

Wasn't a 108 used by James Garner and Donald Pleasance in the Great Escape?

One of the best scenes in The Longest Day, as the invasion fleet approaches a flight of A-1s fly by

 

[Crimea_River]

Wasn't a 108 used by James Garner and Donald Pleasance in the Great Escape?

No. It was a Bu181.

 

[GrauGeist]

Yeah, the "fighters" in Von Ryan's Express were Bf108s...while it was cool to see them (Bf108s are not that common), they were a poor choice for a fighter.

The problem with using the R-4 in the film, is that the primary transport helicopter the Luftwaffe operated was a twin rotor type (Fa223) and would have been the type used.

The Fl282 was a single rotor type and not used to transport personnel.

 

[Graeme]

Nord 1002 Pingouin's with Renault engines appeared in Von Ryans Express...

Which made he wonder if there were many visual differences between the Nord and Messerschmitt machines.
The Bf 108 (top) certainly looks fatter...

 

[stona]

The Bf 108 and Nord 1000 series shared the same airframe. Some alterations must have been made to the nose to accommodate the later (post Argus) French engines.
Cheers
Steve

 

[JacquesDav]

The 1968 "Where Eagles Dare" bugged me the very first time I saw it (I was 10, it was on TV in the 1970's) when I saw a Bell 47 posing as a WWII German helicopter. The historical accuracy crew phoned that one in... Otherwise it's a passable film, among the better of the latter 1960's WWII fare.

http://www.impdb.org/images/thumb/f/f8/Where_eagles_dare13.jpg/500px-Where_eagles_dare13.jpg

 

[stona]

The 1968 "Where Eagles Dare" bugged me the very first time I saw it...Otherwise it's a passable film, among the better of the latter 1960's WWII fare.

Except that the German High Command seems to have made the fatal mistake of issuing all its troops with blank ammunition

Cheers

Steve

 

[Graeme]

The 1968 "Where Eagles Dare" bugged me the very first time I saw it (I was 10, it was on TV in the 1970's) when I saw a Bell 47 posing as a WWII German helicopter. The historical accuracy crew phoned that one in... Otherwise it's a passable film, among the better of the latter 1960's WWII fare.

Apparently Mr Gary Hyland was so impressed with that scene he wrote a book...

 

[KiwiBiggles]

The chopper close up seen in "Eye of the Needle" is a Westland Widgeon G-ANLW made up for the movie...

View attachment 359250
View attachment 359251

Thanks Graeme. That's really useful, I'll pass it on. Although I suspect you may have wasted a good candidate for "What aircraft is it?"!

 

[KiwiBiggles]

So, is the Sioux in "Where Eagles Dare" the most gratuitous piece of aircraft miscasting in films? I can't offhand think of anything worse. By comparison, the ubiquitous Bf 108 as Bf 109, and T-6 as anything with a radial engine, seem almost accurate.

 

[stona]

So, is the Sioux in "Where Eagles Dare" the most gratuitous piece of aircraft miscasting in films? I can't offhand think of anything worse. By comparison, the ubiquitous Bf 108 as Bf 109, and T-6 as anything with a radial engine, seem almost accurate.

At least the film makers DID stick swastikas on the tail of the Ju 52 and (I think) the T-6s lined up at the airfield. I bet they wouldn't do that today

Edit: The T-6s did wear swastikas, and an emblem loosely based on that of I./JG 51, the background style and colour is different (simplified,which is understandable). They also, unfortunately, wear a bomber type of code, but you can't have everything!

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

This is just for fun, not to be taken too seriously, but surely no coincidence.

Cheers

Steve