highest kill ratio

[renrich]

I have read often about the campaigns you mention your father was in, lately in Lundstrom's books which are the best I have seen. I know those pilots in those days were just men who were doing their duty but they almost seem like mythical figures to me. If one reflects seriously about the odds they went against and the circumstances under which they operated, and the results of their efforts, they have to rank at the top among the men who served the US in all our history. Your relationship to one who was there is remarkable. I once asked Swope which was most difficult, landing a Wildcat on a carrier or a modern jet? He said no question that the deck landing of the Wildcat was most difficult. I think his last job in the Navy was as project officer on the F111B. I met him in Dallas through a mutual friend and spent a week with him in Grand Junction, CO, with the idea of mining microscopic gold in the Mancos Shale. That was about 1990 and I lost track of him after that. I remember vividly when Jim and I went to the air port at GJ and looked at the shell of a Grumman Tiger( F11F, I think) which was parked out on the outskirts of the field.

 

[claidemore]

Perhaps, but OTOH if you don't split up 109 or Spitfire by model or period, you're not only talking a range of pretty different a/c technically within each general subheadings ('Spitfire' or '109'), but you are also equating claims by Spits in say 1941 over France that were perhaps 5:1 overstatements of actual German losses, with claims in 1944-45 that were much closer to the truth. Similarly for 109 you'd be equating relatively accurate 1941 East Front claims with several:1 overstatements ca. 1944-45. There is or might be some official ratio for that whole series of a/c as a trivia fact, but it has hardly any real world meaning. Of course the same factors (varying claim accuracy, varying type of opponents etc) make comparison of claimed kill ratio's between types questionable in many cases, but the longer period of time and wider variation of circumstances you cover for one 'type', the more those factors make the numbers *internally* inconsistent even for that one 'type'.

Joe

Question is, how far do you go in splitting up the different models? I agree there is a considerable difference between the Mk1 Spitfire (1050hp) and Mk IX (1600 hp), and a huge difference for the Spitfire XIV (2050 hp) with an entirely different engine on a different airframe.
In the case of the F4F and FM2 though, the difference in hp is about 150 at takeoff power, and a slightly bigger tail.
If we were doing an in-depth analysis (which as you point out would be difficult and probably not produce a meaningful result) looking for the most accurate figures we could, splitting the FM2 from the F4F4 might be appropriate. I just don't think 32-1 for the FM2 (eyebrow raising though that stat is!) gives a clear picture to the initial generalized question posted here. The 6.9 or 7 to 1 overall figure often quoted for the Wildcat series is outstanding as it is.
Why not throw in the Ta152, where there are strong arguments that it has an 11-0 kill/loss ratio, possibly the only WWII fighter with 0 air to air losses, making it the hands down winner?

 

[TenGunTerror]

I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited

I believe a P-61 was shot down by a BF110 and if I'm wrong, one was shotdown by a friendly aircraft due to misidentification, not sure if this counts with the ratio.

 

[uberninja]

he 162, killed one lost none, therefore 1:0 kill:death ratio

 

[FLYBOYJ]

he 162, killed one lost none, therefore 1:0 kill:death ratio

You sure about that???

 

[Soren]

A He-162 was shot down, so it's a 1:1 ratio. But that doesn't say squat about the capabilities of the a/c.

The Ta-152 had a 11:0 kill ratio, so it tops the list for WW2 a/c.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A He-162 was shot down, so it's a 1:1 ratio. But that doesn't say squat about the capabilities of the a/c.

The Ta-152 had a 11:0 kill ratio, so it tops the list for WW2 a/c.

I think the Brewster 239 holds that title hands down. Take half of the clamis away to dispute any calls for overclaims and you're still talking about 33 to 1. Offically you're looking at about 66 to 1 from what I understand. I'm sure JoeB will have something to say on this as well.

 

[renrich]

Eleven to one for the TA 152 is the same as the Corsair's. The Hellcat had fifteen to one. How come the TA152 which barely got into the war gets to be the champ?

 

[Vincenzo]

Eleven to one for the TA 152 is the same as the Corsair's. The Hellcat had fifteen to one. How come the TA152 which barely got into the war gets to be the champ?

imho it's useleess compare claims, but soren writed eleven to zero

 

[renrich]

Thanks Vincenzo, I missed the zero. I agree with you on the claims question though.

 

[Soren]

I agree regarding the comparison of claims as well as I wrote in post #46.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

In terms of limited engagements the Ta-152 wins, but it never participated in a full scale battle in numbers, only a few top German aces really got to fly it.

 

[Juha]

Hello
Finnish AF got 44 Brewster B-239, 2 were lost in accidents before 25 June 41. 18 or 17 lost in air combat or went missing, 1 or 2 shot down by AA (WO Kinnunen's fate is a bit unclear, Finns were sure that he was hit by Soviet Yhämäki hvAA, according Soviets he was shot down by a La-5) 5 on ground and 3 in accidents by 4 Sept 44. B-239 pilots claimed 476 victories by 4 Sept 44, so a kill ratio of 26:1.

The vast majority of claimed 476 kills by Finnish Brewster B-239 pilots were against fighters, which incl 48 Hurricanes, 41 LaGG-3s, 45 MiG-3s, 27½ Yak-1s, 23 La-5s, 13 "Spitfires" (Yak-1s and 7s in reality), 4 P-40s and 2 Yak-7s.

IMHO the real kill ration was ca 13:1. So not bad for the much maligned Brewster.

Here is the claim accuracy of 16 top FAF aces up to 1 July 44, the order is from top downwards and the order is the number of claims that can be confirmed from Soviet sources, where might well be some gaps. So the order isn't the same you can find in other claim lists, in fact the order is very different indeed incl some notable drops and ups. Only the third place is same as in accepted claim lists. After % the main types used. Brewster B-239 is BW. The list isn't of course the absolute truth, there are still certain uncertainties.

76,2% FR, FA, MT
31,4% FR, BW, MT
48,2% FR, BW, MT
50% GL, FA, MT
68% CU, MT
22% BW, MT
55,6% FR, BW
80,6 MS, MT
52,3 FR, BW, MT
75,6% FR, BW
36,0% MS, MT
87,2% FR, BW
55,8% MT
70,1% FR, BW, MT
76,5 % FR, BW
59,5% MT

Juha

 

[Timppa]

imho it's useleess compare claims, but soren writed eleven to zero

¨

In Willi Reschke's book there is a loss list. It shows 2 Ta-152's as shot down:

Date       Unit     Aircraft Type  Cause               Location    Rank     Name      Fate
14 Apr 45  St./301     Ta152    air combat-Tempest   Ludwigslust   Ofw.  Sepp Sattler  KIA
24 Apr 45  St./301     Ta152    air combat-Yak9      E. of Berlin  Olt.  Hermann Stahl MIA

According to Shores the victorious Tempest pilot was Wt. Off. W.J. Shaw. He was one of the 4 Tempest pilots of 486 squadron who met Reschke, Sattler and Auffhammer.

 

[CloCloZ]

¨

In Willi Reschke's book there is a loss list. It shows 2 Ta-152's as shot down:

Date       Unit     Aircraft Type  Cause               Location    Rank     Name      Fate
14 Apr 45  St./301     Ta152    air combat-Tempest   Ludwigslust   Ofw.  Sepp Sattler  KIA
24 Apr 45  St./301     Ta152    air combat-Yak9      E. of Berlin  Olt.  Hermann Stahl MIA

According to Shores the victorious Tempest pilot was Wt. Off. W.J. Shaw. He was one of the 4 Tempest pilots of 486 squadron who met Reschke, Sattler and Auffhammer.

It seems that Reschke's tales are amongst the most unreliable stories ever heard on WWII, although I'm now surprised to know that in his book he (at last!) admits that Sattler was shot down at Ludwigslust (and not "crashed for unknown reason", as usually said from German side)!

I've examined the whole issue on that dogfight here, at the best I could do having so fragmentary info:
Ludwigslust aerial combat

BTW: the often declared 11:0 kill/loss ratio for Ta152 is, well ... not true!
The true Ta152 ratio is likely about 2:1 (seven victories and four losses), as I explained in the last part of that page ("Part Two: the Myth").
And remember that almost 50% of pilots that flown her were German aces, so it's not a great achievement at all ...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And remember that almost 50% of pilots that flown her were German aces, so it's not a great achievement at all ...

How so? Could you have done better? Its pretty easy to judge sitting in a comfy recliner.

 

[river]

Hi,

What about the kill ratio for the HE-219?

From what I have read, its first few missions were successful, but not sure if this success continued, nor how many 219s were shotdown.

river

 

[CloCloZ]

How so? Could you have done better? Its pretty easy to judge sitting in a comfy recliner.

It's not a great achievement for the plane, not for that German aces: they already proved to be good.
It's the plane that (used at low and medium altitudes, where it wasn't designed for) never proved to be as nearly as good as is often said.
2:1 ratio, having been flown by a lot of aces, is a really poor result even in a difficult TO as war-end ETO (difficult TO doesn't prevent good pilots to have the better to enemies at least in kill ratio, even when overwhelmed in number and in some cases even riding inferior planes, think about Finnish Winter War).

 

[Juha]

Hello Clo
I'm very buzy now, 2 projects under work and deadline approaching faster than I'd like, so I read only a part of the text in your link and looked the map overlays. Looked interesting but I'll have time read all only after I have got the projects ready and the last 15% is always the most difficult one with much cross-checking and trying to solve the most problematic details.

Strangest thing in Ta-152 story IMHO has been the claim that its kill ratio was 11:0 when even Reschke story shows that Stahl, whose wingman Reschke was during his last flight, was very probably shot down by Yaks, Reschke last sawing him flying straight course in slight dive followed by firing Yaks. And he never returned from that sortie.

Juha

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It's not a great achievement for the plane, not for that German aces: they already proved to be good.
It's the plane that (used at low and medium altitudes, where it wasn't designed for) never proved to be as nearly as good as is often said.
2:1 ratio, having been flown by a lot of aces, is a really poor result even in a difficult TO as war-end ETO (difficult TO doesn't prevent good pilots to have the better to enemies at least in kill ratio, even when overwhelmed in number and in some cases even riding inferior planes, think about Finnish Winter War).

Okay I see where you are coming from. Not sure if I agree, but I understand what you are saying.