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I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1.
I believe the Bf 109 had a 12:1 against Russian aircraft.
It's not the kill ratio but the clame ratio. Even if we are speaking obout confirmed claims, it's change nothing. The facts that the plane is confirmed by the own pilot's side, does not mean there was a real shot from the archives of the other side.
Considering that the particular overclaim can easily reach from 1.2-1.5 to 1-15, 1-20 in some paricular cases, conversation about claims (confirmed or not) to losses isn't of any kind of historical interest without the confirmation from the archives of the other side.
Regards
We have nothing else to go by, so as far as I am concerned they can be said to be kill ratios...
I don't understand what don't understand...
I understand very well what you are saying! I am saying that unless we have proof otherwise, we have to go by the claim rates!
But we're in 2009 now! You've got a lot of overclaim examples, and even from mid 70 ies works (from Mal Tedder and Gen W Coppens from instance revue Icare) it was obvious that Luftwaffe overclaimed about 3 times during BoF and BoB, and Armée de l'air and RAF for 2 times.
Quoting all my sources would make an extremly long list, but you have
Christopher Shores works
Patrick Loreau and Nikolaï Abrosov for Spain
Bernard Baëza and Henry Sakaida for Japanese losses
Patrick Faucon for Armée de l'Air etc...
Well, in final words you have enough examples to call cat, a cat...
Regards
VG
VG - independent of the accuracy of the USAAF claim to award process, the ratios Chris cited for the Mustang in the 8th AF are suprisingly understated.It's not the kill ratio but the clame ratio. Even if we are speaking obout confirmed claims, it's change nothing. The facts that the plane is confirmed by the own pilot's side, does not mean there was a real shot from the archives of the other side.
Considering that the particular overclaim can easily reach from 1.2-1.5 to 1-15, 1-20 in some paricular cases, conversation about claims (confirmed or not) to losses isn't of any kind of historical interest without the confirmation from the archives of the other side.
Regards
Based on LW losses reported, and also taking into account aircraft which crash landed but pilot ecaped OK, the LW losses are close to 8th AF 'awards'. The LW would not account for suchcrash land damaged aircraft as 'lost'
Only two Ta152 losses are listed in Reschke's book. But further in the book when describing the incidents in detail it is clear that both were lost due to mechanical physical failures, as Reschke points out that one started diving without reason, no'one on its tail, no enemy a/c around, no smoke, no radio response, nothing... just crashing straight into the ground.
The Ta-152's on the other hand shot down 11 enemy a/c for sure, despite what Cocloz claims.
i've many doubt on this (that lw losses reported versus 8th are near at 8th claims)
Doubt away - but take any of Prien's works, Caldwell, Muller, Goyat, etc and the documented losses on the cited days of engagement with 8th AF Fighter Command are close to awards actually assessed and credited by USAF Study 85.
I have no issue with your doubts - I do have issue that you rarely back up your 'doubts' or other statements with documented sources.
So, on one hand there is USAF 85 for all USAF, USAAF awards. Disprove them rather than express doubt?
Again Clocloz, the page is written by YOU, and obviously you're a gamer and not a serious researcher, so you have a suspicious agenda.
Infact I see not a single shred of proof in your little article, just a lot of assumptions, nothing more.
Not to take sides in any personal pissing matches, but I'd put in my usual two cents about claims or credited victories v actual losses on the other side. The key point is not that claims or credits tended to exceed real losses. The key point is that the *degree* of overstatement was highly variable, between air arms, and even for the same air arm in different theaters and periods. So it's almost entirely meaningless to compare claimed/credited kill ratio's unless it's claims by the same or very similar air arm in the same period. Otherwise 100 credits by one AF in one theater and period could typically mean 75 real enemy losses, and 100 credits could typically mean 12 enemy losses in another AF, time or place. There are historical examples everywhere within that range for fighter claims/credits, or even outside it.
There is therefore no valid basis for taking claims from different AF's, or greatly different times and situations even for the same AF, at face value relative to each other. Either we know the claim accuracy from enough relevant examples documented from both sides, same AF, same theater, same period of time, or we can't compare them reliably.
And, besides data, different researchers' methods and assumptions, and sometimes biases, can lead to different answers for the claim accuracy, even when data exists from both sides. That's the other problem, in some cases (not saying any cases here) there turns out good reason for skepticism about what people have said they've found about claim accuracy.
Joe