History according to random people...

[GrauGeist]

and good ol' Bjorn had to make a (rather pathetic) comeback in that comment section, so I tossed this back at him:
David Aww...so Bjorn likes to hurl insults but can't take the heat when he's called out for it.
So let's see, Germany invades:
Austria - March 12, 1939
Czechoslovakia - March 15, 1939
Poland - September 1, 1939
Luxembourg - May 10, 1940
Holland - May 10, 1940
Belgium - May 10, 1940
France - May 14, 1940
Russia - June 22, 1941
London was bombed when?
From September 7, 1940 through March 27, 1945 (all bombers, V1 and V2 missions)
Stalingrad was reduced to a wasteland when?
July 17, 1942 - February 2, 1943.
And Dresden was bombed when?
That would be February 13 - 15, 1945.
So it would appear that there may have been a reason why Dresden was bombed - because Germany started the damned war, Bjorn...
If that's too hard for you to understand, perhaps wrap a plastic bag tightly around your head so all of your stupid stops leaking out...

 

[fubar57]

Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...

 

[GrauGeist]

Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...

You, Sir, have earned bacon for that GIF!

And you have a good point...however, consider this:
*if* Bjorn runs to a history book to "prove" me wrong, he might accidentally see that the timeline is, indeed against his convictions.

And there may be at least one person in the crowd who sees the facts and learns something...

 

[at6]

Remove the this is not a toy warning from the plastic bags, give them to Butt Weenie and his friends, them tell them use them over their heads for deep diving.

 

[mikewint]

War against the military is one thing war against civilians is another and "You hit me first" not a valid justification
From February 13 to February 15, 1945, during the final months of World War II, Allied forces bombed the historic city of Dresden. Dresden was neither important to German wartime production nor a major industrial center, and before the massive air raid of February 1945 it had not suffered a major Allied attack. By February 15, the city was a smoldering ruin and an unknown number of civilians—estimated at somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000–were dead.
An important aspect of the Allied air war against Germany involved what is known as "area" or "saturation" bombing. In area bombing, all enemy industry–not just war munitions–is targeted, and civilian portions of cities are obliterated along with troop areas. Before the advent of the atomic bomb, cities were most effectively destroyed through the use of incendiary bombs that caused unnaturally fierce fires in the enemy cities. Such attacks, Allied command reasoned, would ravage the German economy, break the morale of the German people and force an early surrender. The Allies never overtly admitted that they were engaged in saturation bombing; specific military targets were announced in relation to every attack. However, it was but a veneer. In the heat and anger of a World War few mourned the destruction of German cities that built the weapons and bred the soldiers that by 1945 had killed more than 10 million Allied soldiers and even more civilians.
Now, as Dave pointed out, Germany was indeed the first to employ area bombing tactics during its assault on Poland in September 1939. In 1940, during the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe failed to bring Britain to its knees by targeting London and other heavily populated areas with area bombing attacks. One cannot deny that the Royal Air Force was avenging the bombings of London and Coventry in 1942 when it launched the first of many saturation bombing attacks against Germany. In 1944, Hitler named the world's first long-range offensive missile V-1, after "vergeltung," the German word for "vengeance". The "V" weapons were an expression of his desire to repay Britain for its devastating bombardment of Germany.
Dresden was called "the Florence of the Elbe" and was regarded as one the world's most beautiful cities for its architecture and museums. Dresden's contribution to the war effort was minimal compared with other German cities. In February 1945, refugees fleeing the Russian advance in the east took refuge there. As Hitler had thrown much of his surviving forces into a defense of Berlin in the north, city defenses were minimal, and the Russians would have had little trouble capturing Dresden. It seemed an unlikely target for a major Allied air attack.
On the night of February 13, hundreds of RAF bombers descended on Dresden in two waves, dropping their bombs indiscriminately over the city. The city's air defenses were so weak that only six Lancaster bombers were shot down. By the morning, some 800 British bombers had dropped more than 1,400 tons of high-explosive bombs and more than 1,100 tons of incendiaries on Dresden, creating a great firestorm that destroyed most of the city and killed numerous civilians. Later that day, as survivors made their way out of the smoldering city, more than 300 U.S. bombers began bombing Dresden's railways, bridges and transportation facilities, killing thousands more. On February 15, another 200 U.S. bombers continued their assault on the city's infrastructure. All told, the bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force dropped more than 950 tons of high-explosive bombs and more than 290 tons of incendiaries on Dresden. Later, the Eighth Air Force would drop 2,800 more tons of bombs on Dresden in three other attacks before the war's end.
Because there were an unknown number of refugees in Dresden at the time of the Allied attack, it is impossible to know exactly how many civilians perished. After the war, investigators from various countries, and with varying political motives, calculated the number of civilians killed to be as little as 8,000 to more than 200,000. Estimates today range from 35,000 to 135,000. Looking at photographs of Dresden after the attack, in which the few buildings still standing are completely gutted, it seems improbable that only 135,000 of the million or so people in Dresden at the time were killed. Cellars and other shelters would have been meager protection against a firestorm that blew poisonous air heated to hundreds of degrees Fahrenheit across the city at hurricane-like speeds.

American author Kurt Vonnegut, was a prisoner of war in Dresden during the Allied attack and tackled the controversial event in his book "Slaughterhouse-Five"

 

[Old Wizard]

They reaped what they sowed.

 

[Shinpachi]

So, they never excuse.
I respect them

 

[Elmas]

Chris, to rephrase: Hard for me to stay apolitical... Me mouth has got me into more trouble than any other organ.

Dontopedalogy
A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls.
Dan Quayle
......................

Aluminium wil not have any use in modern aeroplanes.
R. Petit, How to build an aeroplane, 1910.

 

[Shortround6]

An indication of the difficulty of predicting the future. The aluminum alloy/s of 1910 having about the strength of solidified dirt/ dried mud. That changed considerably in just a few years and the 20s and 30s saw tremendous development of aluminum alloys.

 

[mikewint]

They reaped what they sowed.

Let's be totally clear here, the German government and certain military units, which by the by, were not all Germans committed truly horrendous crimes against humanity. The Luftwaffe did indeed begin the bombing of cities and civilian targets like hospitals in their attacks on Poland and Rotterdam to name just two.
As for Britain, it was a different story.
Hermann Göring's general order, issued on 30 June 1940, stated:
The war against England is to be restricted to destructive attacks against industry and air force targets which have weak defensive forces. ... The most thorough study of the target concerned, that is vital points of the target, is a pre-requisite for success. It is also stressed that every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary loss of life amongst the civilian population.
Hoping that the British would negotiate for peace, Hitler explicitly prohibited attacks on London and against civilians. Any airmen who, intentionally or unintentionally, violated this order were punished. Hitler's No. 17 Directive, issued 1 August 1940, established the conduct of war against Britain and specifically forbade the Luftwaffe from conducting terror raids.
On 24 August, several off-course German bombers accidentally bombed central areas of London. The next day, the RAF bombed Berlin for the first time, targeting Tempelhof airfield and the Siemens factories in Siemenstadt. This infuriated Hitler and he ordered that the 'night piracy of the British' be countered by a concentrated night offensive against the island, and especially London.
Hitler announced that:
The other night the English had bombed Berlin. So be it. But this is a game at which two can play. When the British Air Force drops 2000 or 3000 or 4000 kg of bombs, then we will drop 150,000, 180,000, 230,000, 300,000, 400,000 kg on a single night. When they declare they will attack our cities in great measure, we will eradicate their cities. The hour will come when one of us will break – and it will not be National Socialist Germany!
And the Blitz begins.
Now:
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Attempting to justify an action against another because that other did take or would take the same action is logically fallacious. One crime does not cancel out another.
Pray tell me Sirrah, from your high seat of Judgement, what atrocities were committed by this child and his mother?

 

[bobbysocks]

the despicably unfortunate thing about war is it isn't confined to combatants and the politicians who made the decisions in the first place. more innocent people die than gun toting soldier. there is probably a very similar picture of a father ( and or mother) and child in London, Coventry, Warsaw, and a thousand other places.

 

[bobbysocks]

Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...

what is even worse is the truth of what really happened over time will become so diluted with lies and misinformation that what will be known or taught will not even be close to actual events...

 

[mikewint]

the despicably unfortunate thing about war is it isn't confined to combatants and the politicians who made the decisions in the first place. more innocent people die than gun toting soldier. there is probably a very similar picture of a father ( and or mother) and child in London, Coventry, Warsaw, and a thousand other places.

Bobby, could not agree more. But comments like "The Germans got what they deserved" really get my ire. In any conflict civilians are going to get killed but it should not be through deliberate targeting. In PC lingo "collateral damage". As I posted one heinous act does not excuse another. Nothing in Dresden was of military value.

 

[bobbysocks]

I wouldn't go that far to say nothing of military value...the marshaling yard was a variable target..whether it needed that much attention...I wasn't there. but from the accounts I have read of us bomber pilots that is what their target was along with some industry that was co-located with residential.

 

[mikewint]

Bobby, I should not speak in absolutes. All German cities had some military role. Dresden housed a Wehrmacht headquarters, several military hospitals, and perhaps 100 small factories located in the cities suburbs. Perhaps the biggest military target would have been the extensive rail system. The biggest BUT here IMHO is the timing.
The bombing of Dresden in February 1945 was not a militarily necessity — by then the war was definitely over. Hitler was already in his bunker playing out his final absurd fantasies. The British and Americans were at the German border after winning D-Day the previous summer, while the Russians under Zhukov and Konev were well inside eastern Germany and racing pell-mell to Berlin.
Dresden had no material role of any sort to play in the closing months of the war. So, what strategic purpose did burning its men, women, old people, and children serve? Churchill himself later wrote that "the destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing".
Victor Gregg, a British para captured at Arnhem, was a prisoner of war in Dresden that night who was ordered to help with the clean up. In a 2014 BBC interview he recalled the hunt for survivors after the apocalyptic firestorm. In one incident, it took his team seven hours to get into a 1,000-person air-raid shelter in the Altstadt. Once inside, they found no survivors or corpses: just a green-brown liquid with bones sticking out of it. The cowering people had all melted. In areas further from the town centre there were legions of adults shriveled to three feet in length. Children under the age of three had simply been vaporized.
Chief of the Air Staff Charles Portal had calculated that bombing civilians could kill 900,000 in 18 months, seriously injure a million more, destroy six million homes, and "de-house" 25 million, creating a humanitarian crisis that, he believed, would speed up the war.
In November 1941 the Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command said he had been intentionally bombing civilians for a year. "I mention this because, for a long time, the Government, for excellent reasons, has preferred the world to think that we still held some scruples and attacked only what the humanitarians are pleased to call Military Targets. I can assure you, gentlemen, that we tolerate no scruples."
The post-war US Bombing Survey estimated that the effect of all allied city bombing probably depleted the German economy by no more than 2.7 per cent.

 

[gumbyk]

Bobby, could not agree more. But comments like "The Germans got what they deserved" really get my ire. In any conflict civilians are going to get killed but it should not be through deliberate targeting. In PC lingo "collateral damage". As I posted one heinous act does not excuse another. Nothing in Dresden was of military value.

And how does this differ from Japan?
I don't condone the deliberate targeting of cities, in any situation, and see little difference between this and the targeting of Japanese cities. Unfortunately, everything and everyone became so mired down in the day-to-day business of killing during these wars that it took something as unethical as this to bring things to a point where peace was achievable.

 

[pbehn]

My uncle was in Bomber Command and I amd sick of Dresden being used as a totem for a revisionist view of history.

Dresden was a beautiful city, but not particularly historic. My own village pre dates Dresden, no only was it mentioned in Domesday but the local Baron was an ancestor of George Washington, you can find "history" anywhere if you look for it. The idea that the people of Dresden were more worthy than those of Duisburg, Hamburg, Londons East end or those of Hull is a peculiar type of snobbery.

from Wiki
During the Nazi era from 1933 to 1945, the Jewish community of Dresden was reduced from over 6,000 (7,100 people were persecuted as Jews) to 41.[12][13] Non-Jews were also targeted, and over 1,300 people were executed by the Nazis at the Münchner Platz, a courthouse in Dresden, including labour leaders, undesirables, resistance fighters and anyone caught listening to foreign radio broadcasts.[14] The bombing stopped prisoners who were busy digging a large hole into which an additional 4,000 prisoners were to be disposed of.[15]

Dresden was a German city it may have been pretty, it may have been involved in making nice china trinkets but it was certainly involved in WW2.

Dresden cannot compare in any way to London as a centre of culture, architecture,science history or whatever by any measure, it does not even surpass my grand mothers village which was the site of a Roman Villa. Hitler and his nazis dedicated a huge part of Germanys military and scientific power to destroying London, that was what the war was about. Hitler was a complete mad fool. his ridiculous boasts which you quote show how idiotic he was.

The other night the English had bombed Berlin. So be it. But this is a game at which two can play. When the British Air Force drops 2000 or 3000 or 4000 kg of bombs, then we will drop 150,000, 180,000, 230,000, 300,000, 400,000 kg on a single night.

He was threatening the UK with raids of a maximum of 400 tons of bombs per night, within a couple of years, not realising that his enemies would be launching raids dropping 2000 tons per night and later by day. Hitler did everything he could to destroy London, I do not apologise for the fact that he couldnt do it and I find the idea that people living in a beautiful place surrounded by statues museums and theatres are more worthy of my sympathy than those in a steel town or a mining village or port completely nauseating and typical of todays revisionist view of history.

P.S. not only was I born and brought up in a steel town in England I worked for many years in steel towns in Germany France Italy and Japan, the idea that being killed in a bombing raid in the shadow of a blast furnace is less significant than in the shadow of a Neo Gothic Cathedral makes me puke.

 

[pbehn]

And how does this differ from Japan?
I don't condone the deliberate targeting of cities, in any situation, and see little difference between this and the targeting of Japanese cities. Unfortunately, everything and everyone became so mired down in the day-to-day business of killing during these wars that it took something as unethical as this to bring things to a point where peace was achievable.

It is quite simple. WW2 was won by fire bombing Tokyo and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan but in Europe it was won by the precision bombing of oil targets.

Sorry guys, I will take a few weeks out, this revisionist BS really pushes my buttons.

 

[fubar57]

Why do I sense impending doom in this once funny thread?

 

[Lucky13]

Why do I sense impending doom in this once funny thread?

You're nose twitching and the milk has gone off?