History according to random people...

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pbehn said:
It is quite simple. WW2 was won by fire bombing Tokyo and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan but in Europe it was won by the precision bombing of oil targets.

Sorry guys, I will take a few weeks out, this revisionist BS really pushes my buttons.
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Don't let it get to you, as it's an uphill battle not only with WWII, but a wide range of historical topics.

By the way, the revisionist hot-button that is Dresden was actually started by Goebbels, who immediately pressed for media exposure citing that Dresden was a cultural center with no military value and 200,000 people were killed. From this point onward, Dresden has always been a rallying point for the revisionists and apologists, many times actually using Goebbel's press release verbatim. The actual death toll has been confirmed to be no more than 25,000 by several independant research efforts commissioned by Dresden's city council. This number also takes into account the last victims uncovered during construction in the 1960's.

Another thing that people keep overlooking, is that Dresden was a key transfer point for the retreating Wehrmacht and other military units streaming in from the collapsing eastern and southern front by way of rail and road.
 
Each one of us needs to cool down a bit. What happened ,happened. That's how it was and is. Some could second guess the dropping of the Atomic bombs, but then that action while killing many, may have saved millions of lives because there was no invasion of Japan.
 
Shinpachi said:
So, that is excuse :)
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Shinpachi,
My teachers as a child were veterans from all theaters of WWII. Some were in Europe and others were in the Pacific.
I met some veterans who years later, still harbored so much hatred for the people of Japan that they wished that there had been enough A bombs to kill every one. Saw a few curse and walk away from check out lines in stores if they saw a person of Japanese descent behind the counter. What many of them experienced during the war caused them to lose sight of the humanity of the Nisei or any one of Japanese ancestry. Also, it must considered that if Japan had developed the bomb and an effective delivery system, the leaders of that time would used it against their perceived enemies.
 
You have to look at by what was known at the time. The Battle for Okinawa had finished on June 21,1945 after 82 days that saw more than 12,000 Americans killed and a further 50,000 wounded. More than 150,000 Japanese — many of them civilians — were killed during the battle. An invasion of Japan was estimated to cost hundreds of thousands of lives if not well over a million. Maybe that estimate was wrong but how much conventional bombing and use of incendiaries would be needed to reach the same effect or end point, that is surrender without invasion and how many Japanese would would have died of starvation and exposure over the winter had the war lasted into 1946?
Perhaps the Japanese were much closer to collapse and surrender than the allies thought in the beginning of August 1945 but that is with the benefit of what is known now.
I am sure there was a element of revenge in the decision but ending the war as soon as possible saved lives on both sides. If you want to call that an excuse then so be it.
My father was with the 6th Marines on Okinawa and was slated to be involved in the Japanese invasion. He was with the occupying forces in Japan for a short period before going home. He never mentioned any hatred of the Japanese while I was growing up but then PFCs/corporals don't make policy either.
If he had been killed during the Japanese invasion I wouldn't be here.
 
Thanks for your kind and polite comment my friend at6.
Following could be what your teachers did not tell you.

Dropping A-bombs, as well as other indiscriminate bombings by the B-29s, certainly weakened our military and economic power but it was not the main factor to end the war.

Hirohito finally decided his surrender because Soviet Union joined the war. A-bomb was a mere new type bomb for us and not almighty to control the situation.

I think that you don't have to be so hard to excuse or justify what your country did because such behavior often looks not only unnatural but insulting our victims even after 71 years. It's enough with R.I.P.
 
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Shinpachi san, understand that there is a strong revisionist movement to demonize the use of the atomic bombs without understanding or knowing what let up to it's use; here in the US and in various parts of Europe, a reason why many Americans are so zealous about this subject and are ready to defend it with great ferocity. I had family who were on their way to Japan when the bomb was dropped, there were other family members who were about to be recalled to participate in the continued fighting (that many thought would go well into 1946). To many American families, the atomic bombings were a blessing, bringing loved ones homes from a long and brutal war. Although there was a lot of harbored anonymity and hatred towards the Japanese, I believe the majority of the American people eventually recognized the horror of those two bombs and in later years and the suffering of those who survived.

You say that "Hirohito finally decided to surrender because Soviet Union joined the war. A-bomb was a mere new type bomb for us and not almighty to control the situation." I could possibly agree with that. I could also believe that he considered the further atomic bombings of other Japanese cities, and let's not forget General Le May who would of been more than happy to incinerate every Japanese city as he did Tokyo - with the continued loss of lives on both sides.

So with this said, I end this with R.I.P.
 
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Not only were there Japanese casualties, there were POWs and foreign laborers lost in the bombings. This was kept secret by the U. S. government for 35 years. May they all R.I.P.
 
I understand that certain topics can be a "hot-button" and we, of all people know the harsh realities of historical fact, but we need to keep in mind the spirit of this thread, and that's history through the eyes of people who have no real grasp of history.

That being said, there is a Russian mathematician by the name of Anatoly Fomenko who claims that the Roman Empire never existed. In his writings, he claims that such works by Homer, Pliny, Cicero and such were the fabrications of Benedictine Monks in the middle ages and goes on to say that western civilization actually dates to A.D. 800.

Here are some of his claims:
- Archaeological dating, dendrochronological dating, paleographical dating, numismatic dating, carbon dating, and other methods of dating of ancient sources and artifacts known today are erroneous, non-exact or dependent on traditional chronology.

- No single document in existence can be reliably dated earlier than the 11th century. Most "ancient" artifacts may find other than consensual explanation.

- Histories of Ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt were crafted during the Renaissance by humanists and clergy - mostly on the basis of documents of their own making.

- The Old Testament represents a rendition of events of the 14th to 16th centuries AD in Europe and Byzantium, containing "prophecies" about "future" events related in the New Testament, a rendition of events of AD 1152 to 1185.

- The history of religions runs as follows: the pre-Christian period (before the 11th century and the birth of Jesus), Bacchic Christianity (11th and 12th centuries, before and after the life of Jesus), Christianity (12th to 16th centuries) and its subsequent mutations into Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam.

- The Almagest of Claudius Ptolemy, traditionally dated to around AD 150 and considered the cornerstone of classical astronomy, was compiled in 16th and 17th centuries from astronomical data of the 9th to 16th centuries.

- All major inventions like powder and guns, paper and print occurred in Europe in the period between the 10th and the 16th centuries.

- Ancient Roman and Greek statues, showing perfect command of the human anatomy, are fakes crafted in the Renaissance, when artists attained such command for the first time.

- There was no such thing as the Tartar and Mongol invasion followed by over two centuries of yoke and slavery, because the so-called "Tartars and Mongols" were the actual ancestors of the modern Russians, living in a bilingual state with Turkic spoken as freely as Russian. So, Russia and Turkey once formed parts of the same empire. This ancient Russian state was governed by a double structure of civil and military authorities and the hordes were actually professional armies with a tradition of lifelong conscription (the recruitment being the so-called "blood tax"). The Mongol "invasions" were punitive operations against the regions of the empire that attempted tax evasion. Tamerlane was probably a Russian warlord.

- Official Russian history is a blatant forgery concocted by a host of German scholars brought to Russia to legitimize the usurping Romanov dynasty (1613–1917).

There have been other "scholars" that dwell on the fringe of mainstream thinking that have tried to push similar theories in the past, but this Fomenko guy has published writings titled "New Chronology" where he goes on to "explain" all of this in great detail and seems to be gathering quite a following.

And kids, THIS is a perfect example of why you NEVER sniff model glue...
 
GrauGeist said:
I understand that certain topics can be a "hot-button" and we, of all people know the harsh realities of historical fact, but we need to keep in mind the spirit of this thread, and that's history through the eyes of people who have no real grasp of history.

That being said, there is a Russian mathematician by the name of Anatoly Fomenko who claims that the Roman Empire never existed. In his writings, he claims that such works by Homer, Pliny, Cicero and such were the fabrications of Benedictine Monks in the middle ages and goes on to say that western civilization actually dates to A.D. 800.

Here are some of his claims:
- Archaeological dating, dendrochronological dating, paleographical dating, numismatic dating, carbon dating, and other methods of dating of ancient sources and artifacts known today are erroneous, non-exact or dependent on traditional chronology.

- No single document in existence can be reliably dated earlier than the 11th century. Most "ancient" artifacts may find other than consensual explanation.

- Histories of Ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt were crafted during the Renaissance by humanists and clergy - mostly on the basis of documents of their own making.

- The Old Testament represents a rendition of events of the 14th to 16th centuries AD in Europe and Byzantium, containing "prophecies" about "future" events related in the New Testament, a rendition of events of AD 1152 to 1185.

- The history of religions runs as follows: the pre-Christian period (before the 11th century and the birth of Jesus), Bacchic Christianity (11th and 12th centuries, before and after the life of Jesus), Christianity (12th to 16th centuries) and its subsequent mutations into Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam.

- The Almagest of Claudius Ptolemy, traditionally dated to around AD 150 and considered the cornerstone of classical astronomy, was compiled in 16th and 17th centuries from astronomical data of the 9th to 16th centuries.

- All major inventions like powder and guns, paper and print occurred in Europe in the period between the 10th and the 16th centuries.

- Ancient Roman and Greek statues, showing perfect command of the human anatomy, are fakes crafted in the Renaissance, when artists attained such command for the first time.

- There was no such thing as the Tartar and Mongol invasion followed by over two centuries of yoke and slavery, because the so-called "Tartars and Mongols" were the actual ancestors of the modern Russians, living in a bilingual state with Turkic spoken as freely as Russian. So, Russia and Turkey once formed parts of the same empire. This ancient Russian state was governed by a double structure of civil and military authorities and the hordes were actually professional armies with a tradition of lifelong conscription (the recruitment being the so-called "blood tax"). The Mongol "invasions" were punitive operations against the regions of the empire that attempted tax evasion. Tamerlane was probably a Russian warlord.

- Official Russian history is a blatant forgery concocted by a host of German scholars brought to Russia to legitimize the usurping Romanov dynasty (1613–1917).

There have been other "scholars" that dwell on the fringe of mainstream thinking that have tried to push similar theories in the past, but this Fomenko guy has published writings titled "New Chronology" where he goes on to "explain" all of this in great detail and seems to be gathering quite a following.

And kids, THIS is a perfect example of why you NEVER sniff model glue...
Click to expand...

I work with quite a few people who believe just that. They the earth is only 6000 years old, carbon dating is a lie made up by scientists and that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together.

Hell we have a very famous and newsworthy surgeon in this country who believes the very same things, as well as that the great pyramids are really grain silos not tombs...

The dumb walk the earth freely, and I think that people that share our Russian friends beliefs are much more common than we think...
 
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