Hungary steps into the breach.

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by davebender, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    October 1935.
    RLM and Daimler-Benz have a nasty dispute over financing for the new Genshagen DB601 engine factory. As a result funding for the engine factory is cut from 50 million RM to 20 million RM. Initial DB601 engine production will be barely adequate for Me-109 and Me-110 aircraft construction. New proposals for DB601 powered aircraft don’t stand a chance for lack of engines.

    Point of Departure. 1936.
    Most European aircraft designers were enthusiastic about the new DB601 engine. The Hungarian Government decides to bankroll DB601 engine production at Manfred Weiss. This will give Hungary a more substantial munitions industry and perhaps earn some hard currency from foreign sales. Unlike some other manufacturers, Manfred Weiss had the expertise to make a copy of the DB605 that was as good as the original.

    The Genshagen facility was designed to produce 220 engines per month using two parallel production lines. Manfred Weiss will produce 110 DB601 engines per month using a single production line.

    September 1938.
    RLM rejects production of the He-100 fighter aircraft.
    The He-100 was designed specifically for the DB601 engine and could not be easily modified to use the more plentiful Jumo 211. Thus the program was historically doomed as soon as the Me-109 entered mass production.

    Heinkel exports the He-100.
    Historically Heinkel sold 6 He-100 prototypes to the Soviet Union and attempted to export the aircraft to Japan. Obtaining permission for license production in Hungary is simple by comparison. Manfred Weiss produced aircraft as well as engines so they are the natural choice. This will be ILO the He-112B which historically almost entered mass production in Hungary.

    1940.
    A Hungarian variant of the He-100 enters mass production. About 75 aircraft per month powered by Hungarian built DB601 engines. This aircraft has some unique Hungarian features such as the fast firing Gebauer machinegun. It has a conventional cooling system similar to the Me-109.

    Battle of Britain.
    Germany regrets decisions to curtail DB601 engine production and to not produce the He-100. Beginning July 1940 they will obtain 50 He-100s per month from Hungary, providing an equal value of tanks, artillery etc. desired by the Hungarian armed forces.
     
  2. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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    Point of Departure. 1936.
    Henry Ford, wanting a share of a potentially lucrative aircraft engine market, begins license production of the DB601.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Ford could probably obtain a license for production of the DB601 engine but who will his customers be? FDR didn't like Germany. As long as he remains President I doubt the Ford produced DB601 engine would be considered for American military aircraft. Henry Ford knew this and is therefore unlikely to build a German designed engine.
     
  4. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    What "potentially lucrative aircraft engine market" in 1936?

    America and the world are still recovering from the depression. The US Military is ordering planes by the dozens, not hundreds. There is no US Market for numbers of military engines for another 2-4 years. And the Navy has about zero interest in liquid cooled engines cutting the military market substantially .

    There was little reason for a US company to license a foreign engine in 1936-37. Especially one that was still in development, the DB 601 was not a finished product in 1936. P&W and Wright had the domestic commercial market pretty well sewn up and also owned a good part of the world market. They were licencing other countries/companies to make their engines, not the other way around.
     
  5. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    This is a real point of departure and has entered the realm of flight of fantasy. The DB 600 was not announced to the world until Aug of 1937 at the Zurich air meet. The ONLY "European aircraft designers" who knew about it in 1936 were German ones. The fuel injected DB 601 may have existed in 1937 (it may have been been used at Zurich but it was not announced) but it was only rumored to the British press in Aug/Sept 1937 during/after the meet. A short description and power ratings are in the Sept 2 1937 issue of "Flight" magazine. A "ground boosted" version was rated at 800hp "normal" at 2200rpm, 900hp available for "continuous emergency" operation (30 minutes) and 1000hp at 2400rpm for 5 minutes.
    The altitude rated engine was given as 800hp at 13,000ft at 2200rpm with 910hp available for take off. Apparently the variable drive for the supercharger was not announced at this time.


    In reality the He 100 was rejected ( or sidelined) with only 4 machines completed. the 5th machine is not completed until after the RLM decision, this is important because at this time the He 100 is still being designed to use the DB601M engine with the wing surface radiators. The planes were also experiencing landing gear problems, landing gear collapsing while the aircraft was parked.

    Well there goes a good bit of the He 100 performance. Even the planes sold to Russia had condenser panels in the wing leading edges, wing panels and the Horizontal stabilizer. The Turtle deck and vertical fin contained panels for the oil cooling system. Fitting conventional radiators and oil coolers will increase drag. Fitting the Gebauer machinegun could prove very interesting also. A large part of cowl was actually the engine mount and the engine was slipped in from below the aircraft. Mounting machine gun/s in the cowl may be possible but may require quite a bit of redesign and a possible increase in fuselage depth ( another increase in drag?). In the real He 100 a single machine gun was mounted in each wing root. A version with 2 machineguns in each wing root was talked about and perhaps even mocked up. However the Gebauer machinegun was driven by the engine so some sort of drive system needs to get from the engine to the machine gun/s. the Normal Gebauer machinegun has a fair amount of distance between the barrels More than any normal pair of machine guns at any rate. Weight in one source is given as 42.5kg (?) rather heavy for even a pair of fast firing 7.92mm machine guns.
    The HE 100 had 4 fuel tanks in the wings, two each side, they may inter-connect but their are four fuel fillers in the top of the wing. One tank was behind the landing gear, out board of the gun bay. Enlarging the gun bay may encroach on tank space. The other tank is in the rear part of the wing also but located just outboard of the landing gear attachment point and ends about wear the aileron begins. Some aircraft had a 5th tank mounted in the lower fuselage behind the pilots seat. Not much space in the wings with out some major redesign work.

    British pilots gleefully buy rounds for the house at the local pub to celebrate easy victories over He 100s. A single .303 hit to the turtle deck or vertical fin may cause enough alcohol loss from the oil cooling system (oil cooler was suspended in an alcohol filled tank behind cockpit. Hot alcohol was circulated though panels in the turtle deck and vertical fin for cooling before returning to ail cooler bath) to cause engine to seize on "deep penetrating" He 100 missions. Lack of 20mm cannon means British armor and self sealing tanks work much better against the He 100s armed only with 7.9mm machine guns. Even two Gebauer machineguns ( two barrels per gun ?) may only give 5200 rpm leaving the 8800rpm (eight guns at 1100rpm each) British fighters an advantage.
     
  6. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    The V-6 was fitted with three MG-17 when sold to Russia and I have an Heinkel He100 engineering drawing with a MG-151 fitted to the engine mount. (awaiting permission from source to post)

    It is interesting to note that an early model of the He-112 was fitted with a engine mounted MG-17 when the early Bf-109 was fitted with one. The Bf-109 encountered gun cooling problems but the Heinkel engineers found a cooling solution and I wonder if this could have translated to the MG-FF for Heinkel?

    With regards to the oil cooler vulnerability, this seems to have gotten the Japanese attention with developing the Ki-64 (and the experimental Ki-61) and them reverted to a conventional oil cooler but kept the engine cooling condensers as this system had better survival characteristics over a conventional radiator system.
     
  7. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the Heinkel engineers could have found a solution but we know that the 109 had problems with engine mounted guns until the "F" series. There is a picture of a document in a book on the HE 100 that seems to list a MG 17 firing though the prop hub as well as as a MG131 and the MG151 as alternatives. The HE 100 becomes a much more viable fighter if you could mount a MG 151 in the engine and a mg 131 in each wing root but those guns don't become available until until much later.
    I believe at least one plane was testing a MG 151 in Spain in 1938 (?) but that does not mean it was ready for actual service use ;)
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    It's my understanding Hungary almost put this aircraft into production. If Hungary has a source for DB601 engines I would expect a competition between the He-100 and He-112B. Winner gets the production contract.
     
  9. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Heinkel He-112B-1/U2
    p2.jpg


    Gull wing design almost looks like a F4U from head on view. This was a 350 mph aircraft when powered by a DB601Aa engine.
     
  10. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    The first is the document you referred to from Erwin Hood's book and the second is another document discussing three MG17s into the V-1. A performance spec sheet is included for aircraft V-4 as it indicates two MG-17 and one MG-FF (correct ammo load weight). The engineering drawing shows a MG151 with the ammo box location and the wing root MG17.
     

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  11. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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  12. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    Glad to, this excerpt shows an MG-FF and its drum
     

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  13. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Krieghund
    thanks alot for the interesting docs

    Juha
     
  14. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Echo that!
     
  15. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    In terms of performance and ease of manufacturing the He100 wins hands down over the He112.
     
  16. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Manfred Weiss may produce a few He-112Bs because the design was available early and several nations submitted purchase orders. However they will switch to He-100 production as soon as the "Hungarian variant" design is ready.

    Customers will line up to purchase the inexpensive Heinkel fighter aircraft powered by a DB601 engine.
    Hungary (duh!).
    Spain.
    Romania.
    Finland.
    Switzerland.
    Norway.
    Netherlands.
    Yugoslavia.
    Greece.
    Turkey.

    Italy will purchase DB601 engines if Manfred Weiss has enough available.

    By 1940 Manfred Weiss will expand to meet demand for DB601 engines and fighter aircraft. Hungary could become a major aircraft producer. That has interesting implications during 1942 if Manfred Weiss still produces the Me-210C. Hungary could be building 100 Me-210Cs per month rather then the historical total of 267.
     
  17. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    What a hoot. :)

    What happens after ALL of these potential customers ask what can the plane be armed with that will actually work in 1939/40?

    1 Mg 17 in each wing and more than likely a third MG 17 through the prop ( or local equivalent.) MG FF isn't working in the 109, the MG 131 and MG 151 are still in development.

    Time to bring out the wing with a pair of rifle caliber mgs in each wing root?

    Sticking guns in the cowl is hard. The cowl IS the engine mount. chopping holes in it must be done with care and reinforcement around the holes and proper stress analysis.

    When the time comes to install protected tanks those countries that were sucker enough to buy are really going to have buyers remorse. The HE 100 has one of the highest surface area to volume ratios of fuel tanks of the fighters of WW II. A lot of added weight and reduced fuel volume. There goes the range they thought they were getting. Of course you could put another tank behind the cockpit and get rid of that oil cooling heat exchanger system the He 100 used and use a regular oil cooler but that would add drag and cost speed climb.

    The cost of the machine has to figured on the international market and not the doctored German economy. Just like France, the Germans were playing fast and loose with the exchange rate. French R-35 tanks cost almost 3 times as much for export as they did for the French government. Profiteering or closer to true cost?
     
  18. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Something to consider for this and some other "what ifs". the development cycle for engines was 3-6 years with few exceptions. Military security, while not like the 1950s and 60s was still present in the 1930's. The Germans did not reveal the DB 600 to the world with any facts figures or examinations until the DB601 was almost in production. The likelihood of the Germans allowing details of the DB601 out to foreign governments is very slight. The US Army only allowed the export of the Allison engine in return for Allison writing off 900,000 dollars that the Army owed them for previous work.

    On the subject of licenses. Countries or companies buy licenses to gain technology or designs they cannot do themselves. BUT they want to buy usable, proven technology or designs. Buying a design that is still on the test bench is NOT licensing a design, it is investing in the first companies research and development.

    BMW took out the licence on the P&W Hornet about 1 1/2 years after P&W got the going Hornet in the US. and the Hornet was P&W second radial engine. There were just TWO other radial engines comparable at the time, The Wright engines and the Bristol Jupiter ( which wound up being produced in 14 different countries). Licencing was certainly done but it was very rarely done for the latest, most advance versions of an engine. The Licencees were buying the licence so they wouldn't have to do research and development and so they could start manufacturing a usable, salable item as soon as possible. Once a company is making a licence product in fair numbers and has a good cash flow they can start fooling about with the next step, developing the product on their own or licencing a a more up to date product. A shooting war can speed things up but even so, sometimes mistakes were made and factories tooled up to make products that never came to pass. Like Continental and their factory for the IV-1430, When that factory was waiting for the IV-1430 to finally be granted clearance for production and a sizable order placed ( which never happened) they kept it busy building small radials and final switched to Merlins. This s OK for the company if the factory is funded with Govt money. In peace time it would have been a disaster to tool-up (or even build floor space) for an unproven engine.
     
  19. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    I have posted a drawing of the Japanese version with the conventional oil cooler and the rear condensers augmenting the wing condensers also showing the wing fuel tanks indicated by the no.2

    Next is the three gun layout and then a depiction of what the laden-plan might look like for the V-4 pre-production aircraft
     

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  20. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Your information is most helpful.

    The He 100 was an interesting design with a number of interesting features. It was pushing the knowledge of the time forward. But as a practical war plane it may have been a little lacking. It was rather tightly packed to begin with leaving little room for additional armament or fuel. Gun development may have been running behind aircraft development. A better engine mount gun would have helped it's prospects a lot. While there was room to fit a cannon in the fuselage and cannon (MG FF) were fitted since the planes never saw combat we don't know well they worked or didn't work. For all the planing for engine mounted guns it took Messerschmitt until the 109F-1 to get the MG FF to work in a combat plane.

    AS the diagrams show it had an awful lot of area that may have been vulnerable to gun fire. Some people say that the condensers were less vulnerable than a conventional radiator but that is not the same as invulnerable.
     
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